Why don‘t Infantry wear the RCIC badge?

[Michael Dorosh]

From Armymedic in another thread:

"We should have regimental padres, and no, they should not wear regimental capbadges, just like all the support trades. First line support is where the padre should be. "

So why don‘t Infantrymen wear the Infantry Corps Badge, and why do vehicle techs, weapons techs, clerks, medics, storesmen, etc. have to wear branch badges, especially if they‘ve been in the same regiment for long periods of time?

 

[MG34]

Infantry don‘t wear the RCIC badge because they are members of regiments.In battle school before graduating recruits used to wear the RCIC badge until an official badging ceremony where they were welcomed into the regiment.I don‘t think they do this anymore. Techs and other tradesman don‘t wear the badge because they are not part of the regiment they are simply posted in to fill specific jobs.In short if they didn‘t earn the badge by completing battle school or joined the regiment they have no right to wear it‘s badges.

 

[casey916]

The candidates on CAP, phase III and what not all wear the RCIC badge until they are badged into their units.

 

[Ian]

As a curious aside, When do Reg Force Officer candidates get badged into their units - at the end of Phase III?

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by MG34:
[qb] Infantry don‘t wear the RCIC badge because they are members of regiments.In battle school before graduating recruits used to wear the RCIC badge until an official badging ceremony where they were welcomed into the regiment.I don‘t think they do this anymore. Techs and other tradesman don‘t wear the badge because they are not part of the regiment they are simply posted in to fill specific jobs.In short if they didn‘t earn the badge by completing battle school or joined the regiment they have no right to wear it‘s badges. [/qb]

Really? Posted in? So why do I occupy a position on the ARE?

In my own specific case, I am most assuredly "part of the Regiment." I‘ve been on strength with the Regiment for 17 years. As a musician for the first 9 I wore the Regimental Badge, not the Musician‘s Trade badge.

If clerks in armoured regiments are "part of the regiment" why do they were black berets?

Why do storesmen in Highland regiments wear glengarries and kilts if they are "not part of the regiment"?

I wonder if you‘re not confusing cap badges with trades badges...you know, the little cloth badge on the CF with the bayonet that indicates you completed infantry training?

 

[Infanteer]

We should all wear the cornflake....

 

[MG34]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
[qb]

Originally posted by MG34:
[qb] Infantry don‘t wear the RCIC badge because they are members of regiments.In battle school before graduating recruits used to wear the RCIC badge until an official badging ceremony where they were welcomed into the regiment.I don‘t think they do this anymore. Techs and other tradesman don‘t wear the badge because they are not part of the regiment they are simply posted in to fill specific jobs.In short if they didn‘t earn the badge by completing battle school or joined the regiment they have no right to wear it‘s badges. [/qb]

Really? Posted in? So why do I occupy a position on the ARE?

In my own specific case, I am most assuredly "part of the Regiment." I‘ve been on strength with the Regiment for 17 years. As a musician for the first 9 I wore the Regimental Badge, not the Musician‘s Trade badge.

If clerks in armoured regiments are "part of the regiment" why do they were black berets?

Why do storesmen in Highland regiments wear glengarries and kilts if they are "not part of the regiment"?

I wonder if you‘re not confusing cap badges with trades badges...you know, the little cloth badge on the CF with the bayonet that indicates you completed infantry training? [/qb]

Like it or not you are not part of the regiment unless you have been badged into the regiment.You are filling a slot that needs to be filled by a tradesman/cook/clerk whatever.
joining a Regiment usually entails joining a Regiment when you first sign up from civy street in the not so distant past each regiment did their own basic and battle school as opposed to the cookie cutter courses done now. When I joined I joined the RCR,did basic and went through the RCR Battleschool I was badged and welcomed into the Regiment after I completed battle school.I had joined the regiment from day 1.
You may be allowed to wear Regimental accoutrements and head gear but that is a courtesy at best and a lack of knowledge at worst. A person in the trades are posted to regiments they may be with the RCR one day and gone to an airforce base the next,they belong to a branch not a Regiment.
Regimental bands are another story altogether they are CF musicians that are granted permission to wear Regimental badges and accoutrements by the Regimental Executive Comittee.Or they are members of the regiment who have the secondary duty as a bandsman along with their other duties.In this case they are full members of the Regiment.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Infanteer:
[qb] We should all wear the cornflake.... [/qb]

That‘ll happen when they renumber us American style.

Do you think 1st Battalion, 2nd Infanty Regiment (Regular) would still wear the Presidential Unit Citation?

But seriously, why have a regimental system if your regiments are simply amalgams of tradespersons? "Posting in" as posted to "belonging to a Regiment" is simply a matter of semantics. If we wear capbadge and Regimental distinctions because it is actually supposed to matter, why doesn‘t it matter for the tradespersons?

It is especially silly in the case of storesmen; combat storesmen working for the CQMS wear the regimental badge while the RQMS‘ staff wear LOG - yet they perform the same tasks.

 

[Infanteer]

Ok, I was just joking about the cornflake thing.

However, I do see what your getting at. I remember posting a solution that was not too popular, but I think is essential for moving on:

Remove the regimental system from the trades. It is no longer that you are part of an Infantry Regiment or a Support Corps or Branch. Everyone in 1 CMBG is part of the same regiment, whether that be rifleman, clerk, cook, or gunner.

I am looking to the named WWII units of the German Army and the SS as examples of this. A modern day equivlent would be the USMC or the RM, where everyone within the Brigade is badged the same (my example would just have three different badges).

I know it is extreme, and the gunners and engineers will hate my guts, but I see it as an efficent way to maintain our regimental system in the future where further intergration is necessary.

 

[bossi]

Yah know, it‘s funny how sometimes the answer is staring you right in the face ...

Michael Dorosh makes a good point:

If we wear capbadge and Regimental distinctions because it is actually supposed to matter, why doesn‘t it matter for the tradespersons?

It would certainly go a long way to eliminating the "us vs. them" mentality if everybody in a Regiment wore the same cap badge (and as a concession to the insecurity of some quivering career managers in NDHQ, "specialist" MOCs could wear their trade collar dogs)

Yup - it‘s funny - I remember the days when my Regiment did exactly that, and the non-infantry were proud to wear the Regimental cap badge (and, sadly, I also remember the black day they were forced to put up their trade cap badge ... all because some whanker in NDHQ "just didn‘t get it")

Here‘s to "The Regiment".

 

[Michael Dorosh]

It‘s an interesting idea, Infanteer and has worked well for other armies. So you would strike the 1 CMBG, 41 CBG, etc and go with named units of brigade size?

The applicable term that comes to mind immediately is Battle Group - and these are usually named for the commander.

Battle Group Cox? Battle Groups and Task Forces etc. are usually more fluid though, so how would this reinforce unit pride?

Would take some thinking; bearing in mind the German Army and Waffen SS have always been designed along brigade/regimental lines whereas in Canada this would be a complete rethink. Their divisions also were organized regionally, but almost all references in English omit the regional designation. They all had them, though, excepting those with honour titles. Even the panzer divisions were subtitled as Pomeranian, Berlin, East Prussian, Thuringian, Hessian, etc.

I‘m not suggesting this is a huge problem and it has indeed been discussed before, just wondering if there is really a justification for it. MG34‘s stance is clear, but he is really talking about pride in the Infantry trade, not regimental pride. ie "only we get to wear the badge so neener neener." I think the Infantry deserve a lot of their quiffs - the right for Senior NCOs to wear a red sash, the idea of having Colours, etc. We‘ve discussed before the adoption of some sort of combat infantry badge also.

I would love to have seen anyone try and tell Corporal Topham he wasn‘t really part of the 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion when he won his Victoria Cross, because he was "only" a medical tradesman. Or to have told the Canadian Airborne Regiment that Topham‘s VC "belonged" to the Canadian Forces Medical Service.

The original discussion was of padres - in WW II padres wore their own Chaplain Service badges, but back then, their rank was Honourary. Now that chaplains are fully integrated into the military, that rationale seems not to have much merit. There is, of course, the question of a man of the cloth wearing a regimental badge and its association with the main activities of soldiers - administering lethal force - and the ‘danger‘ of mistaking the padre for a combatant. But one would think the white collar and black shirt would be a giveaway...

 

[MG34]

The current fashon is to get rid of the regimental system,that may be fine for the bean counters and the like in Ottawa.The regiment should instill a sense of pride and history,the term Regimental family is kicked around and joked about quite alot these days that is truely sad.One thing a regiment has that any other organization lacks is that sense of history,and there is a bond formed by troops who have served awhile in a Regiment.As for tradesman,etc they are invited into that family when they are posted in to the Battalion.Most of ours don‘t even feel right wearing our slip ons because they realize they didn‘t "earn" them in the manner which the 031s did. I agree fully with them,way back when I was a Weapons Tech in a reserve unit we didn‘t wear the regimental head dress or insignia of the unit we were with because we were not members of the Regiment and rightfully so.
As for the Infantry Corps as a whole there is no loyalty to it as compared to the Regiments which make it up. No Infantry soldier in their right mind would rather the RCIC capbadge over that of their Regiment,or worse yet the insignia of a larger formed organization and loose the regimental identity.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Everything you say is true MG34, but if the tradesmen felt uncomfortable wearing RCR (or whatever) slip-ons, are we to believe the Regiment itself did nothing to foster that feeling?

You say in one breath that it is a shame that people make mock of "regimental families" and in the next breath condone the practice of restricting "membership" or sense of belonging to a Regiment because of their trade. Despite the fact that a war-strength battalion would be made up of what - 25% non-infantry? In WW II an infantry battalion had 801 officers and men, with about 300 of them "employed in other trades".

You don‘t see a contradiction there?

Perhaps you‘re defining a regiment differently.

Let me ask you, then - what is a Regiment?

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I wear the Presidential Citation.

 

[1feral1]

Att and Dets.

Here as a member of RAEME I wear the RAEME badge, but the colour patch on the puggeree is that of the Regt.

WTF is a puggeree? Thats the cloth band on the hat, KFF.

WTF does KFF mean? It means khaki fur felt, or more commonly known as the slouch hat.

Once bush, no corps of unit ID is worn at all, as we know who we are.

So as in any other Unit, its Corps first, then colour patch, as we all belong to the same unit.

Australia does not use the slip on method (slip ons that go on the eppaulettes), which, back in Canada is just a unit identifier anyways. So I dont see what the big fluff is all about.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Wes, we‘re not all complete idiots. I do know what a puggeree is and I can tell a slouch hat from a stetson 9 times out of 10. I think I might even be able to find Australia on a map, if I stand on my head long enough.

The discussion was about why these things are, not what they are.

As for slip ons, they refer to the epaullettes of the uniform so I‘m not sure the point you‘re trying to make.

I am pretty sure you don‘t wear cap badges in combat (or bush) dress because of security - ie being killed or captured with unit insignia lets enemy intelligence operatives deduce unit strengths and locations. None of which is relevant to this discussion in any event (and we do the same in Canada, if we really need to compare - the Combat Hat Badge in cloth is not issued in CADPAT nor worn on the field cap anymore.)

The only really relevant point you make is that tradesmen apparently wear corps cap badges even when regimentally employed, but wear the regimental colours as a backing to the badge.

My point, again, is that if this is the practice why not just have all soldiers in the regiment wear the same badge - as a sign of unit pride. Pride in trade is accomplished via the Trades Badge.

The situation is more complicated in Canada as the corps were are replaced with Branches in the 1970s and there is a consequent lack of history for many of them. The links between RCEME and EME are reinforced by the similar cap badges; the RCOC and the Logistics Branch have very little to do with each other, the latter being an amalgamation of several of the former corps, including RCOC, RCASC, CPC, CMSC, etc.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I can tell you this. When all the supporting elements in my unit got the PPCLI coin (couple of years ago) they were extremely bitter. They felt that these atts didn‘t go through the 16 weeks of crap (or whatever timeframe it is these days) and therefore didn‘t deserve it.

 

[1feral1]

Oops, touched a nerve with the finance dude!

Dont get your knickers in a knot over something you MISUNDERSTOOD! A Mr know-it-all and a career CPL with what seems to be small penis syndrome or a weed up your arse. You might have the TI on this site, but thats as far as it goes.

In the first place, if you spoke to someone like you would expect to be spoken to, you would not get the shrapnel from me!

For the record - I get asked so often what a puggeree and a KFF is, so thats why I added it. I try to create positive commnets, adn hoefully pas on learned info to others.

When I came to Australia, I had no idea what they the real names of these things were.

A colour patch does not go behind the badge, but in the opposit side of the puggaree. The one I current have on my puggaree is in the shape of a T with Arty colours.

The T being a battle honour for the Rats of Tobruk, which my Regiment ( then called 2/3 Anit Tank Regiment) played a pivitol role against Rommel.

The Corps badge goes on the front of the puggaree, and the Rising Sun on the outside of the brim, which is always down except in ceremonial dress.

So, Mr Finance, dont be so bloody negative! Crikey, glad your not looking after my pay! You sound like the Cal Hi Finance Nazi from ****.

Secondly, dont talk down to me like some kind of a spoiled child, and as if your shyte dont stink.

I did my time in the CF and a fair share of travelling - exactly 18yrs 11 months and 19 days, leaving at the rank of Sergeant and WO qualified, plus going on 10 yrs here in Australia.

Now, if I MAY say, one is att‘d to SAS or the Cdo‘s, as RAEME for example. They wear the RAEME dark blue beret or Gr2 Slouch. However should they take the SAS or Cdo Cadre course, they still wear the RAEME badge, but on the tan SAS beret, or the Cdo green beret. Never a SAS or Cdo badge.

Sam goes for 3RAR (Para), often RAEME atts wear the maroon beret, but again with the RAEME badge. It makes sense.

About coins, I still carry my CF EME coin in my wallet. No. 4020. Arte et Marte!

Cheers,

Wes

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Interesting views...when I was wearing green we made our support types welcomed in the regiment, from the opinions expressed here it looks like that is no longer the case for the most part. Too bad.

 

[Long in the tooth]

I can say the proudest moment of my life was putting up PPCLI slip ons and cap badge. I even had my collar dogs and buttons gold plated. Likewise, after years in the infantry, I was medically remustered and was very distressed to have to remove them. Not that I was any way ashamed of my new trade, "as they also serve" and are vitally necessary. In my case, I remained with the PPCLI. I believe the Regiment made a wise compromise. As a group the trades would decide whether to wear PPCLI or trades shoulder flashes, but would continue to be distinguished by cap badge and collar dogs. A pretty fair decision in my mind.