Why Can't Softwoods Be Resolved ?

[tomahawk6]

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/338fvzkp.asp

Found this interesting article and found that it pretty well described the issue and concludes that the real problem is the lack of Canadian support and so this is a way for Washington to show its displeasure. The author's conclusion sure makes sense to me in that softwoods may be the carrot or stick to obtain Canadian cooperation in issues like deserters and or foreign policy. I think I agree that if Hinzman and his ilk are not returned to the US then softwoods may not be resolved for a very long time - if the Liberal Party retains power.

 

[SHELLDRAKE!!]

I find it interesting how Mr. Dithers seems to be fighting the issue with more resolve now that an election is looming and yet before it was rarely raised during his meetings with Bush.

 

[Marty]

I dont know if Id say hes fighting with more resolve now.....mabey shooting his mouth off to make some points with the voters, now that he is going to the polls very shortly. He is trying to ensure that he doesnt loose any seats in Atlantic Canada  by apearing to stand up to that big meany Goerge W. Id like to say that it will fail and that the good people of the Maritimes will see it for what it is, but it hasnt happened yet.

 

[Marty]

atlantic canada as far as I understand is not a problem when it comes to softwood lumber.  I beleive most of the lumber from there comes from private land and is not subject to the low stumpage fee/subsidy, exports from this region of canada has increased by more than 80%.    I do believe that both the Dems and Republicans will play hardball until the deserters are returned according to international agreements.  Remember the BRYD ammendment is namked after the ex-KK Klan dude....   

Atlantic Canada most certainly is a problem or I guess I should say has a problem , in that the mills cant get rid of the end product so they dont buy anymore from the little guys (like me), the Maritime Mafia 9Irving ) passes it on down the line.

I wholeheartadly believe that the US is willing to play hardball over many things , not the least of which is the way Canada has let these turds stay in our country. If I had my way Id hide them in a load of Black Spruce and send them to you COD!

 

[GO!!!]

Softwoods can't be resolved because the US has no need for candian lumber, and places duties on it in order to protect domestic industry.

The price for softwood lumber is high right now, as a result of the recent disasters, so the industry is healthy, and employing americans. Allowing free trade lumber into the US would kill these local industries and the political chances of whatever candidate campaigns there, in addition to upsetting a powerful lobby.

This is another manifestation of free trade only being free for american exports, it has nothing to do with ideological spats like the deserters or gay marriage or anything else. This trade policy is most prevalent in agribusiness in the US, but is expanding to most resource based industries, with the exception of hydrocarbons.

Simply, because the US won't play by the rules, and we can't make them.

 

[UberCree]

Exactly GO.
Why encourage free trade agreements if they are not going to be honoured.
The US is really losing its way on this issue.  It will make any country that is thinking of forming a free trade agreement with the US think twice.
I say look the the east for trade, less dependance on US.  So if they dishonour agreements and RULINGS, then we can pull out.

 

[3rd Horseman]

Some interesting points here, S Baker has hit the nail on the head from my perspective. Stumpage.
Low stumpage fees in Canada are causing a massive export business to the US. We must increase the cost of stumpage for two reasons,
One to slow the cutting of our timber.
Two ensure the playing field with our trading partners is equal.
The Irving monopoly among others in NB and other Canadian forrests has to end and be divided up to smaller private operators. Just take a trip to the state of Maine with the same forrest as us in NB and you will see less cutting of the forrests there why is that? Cheap Canadian lumber. I still cant believe the NAFTA panel sided with us on this one, I would be pissed if I was a US wood producer.

 

[GO!!!]

GO, this horse has been beaten many times.   However, I don't think most CDNs are being intellectually honest.   If the US was such an unfair protectionist why would canada have such a huge trade surplus with the US?   I was wondering if you have read all of the NAFTA decisions?   Indeed the last decision said that Canada is subsidizing the lumber, the only problem is that they did not agree with the tariff percentage.  

As far as agri-business, I can't remember the last time the US government threw or threatend to throw a farmer for selling grain on the open market, can you remember the last time it happened in canada?   Ask my brethren from southern alberta they will tell you.   Also check on all of the subsidies, wheat boards, egg, milk, beer protectionist measures are in canada....I know I grew up on a farm in east central alberta.

I have not made an academic study of the NAFTA decisions, no.

Canada has an enormous trade deficit with the US because they are the No. 1 consumer of nearly every consumer item on the planet. Most nations have a severe trade imbalance with the US, we are hardly alone.

As for agri-business, the point is not our levels of  subsidisation, it is that the US pushes universal free trade as a cure - all for every nation, and then engages in punitive tariffs and duties to protect it's own industries. They are imposing rules as conditions for trade, then not following them.

The fact that California rice farmers can grow rice for export more cheaply than Chinese peasants can is only one example of this. Similar situations exist for most agricultural products in the US.

 

[3rd Horseman]

Now that would be a sight to see....US farmers employing Mexicans to grow rice to sell to the Chinese.

edit typo

 

[TCBF]

NAFTA was for COMMERCIAL econonomic integrety, not INDIVIDUAL economic integrity.  Us peasants still get to run the Kanada Kustoms guantlet.

Tom

 

[GO!!!]

I am not an economists, but I do know this much the US cannot remain the engine for the world economy period.   The Japanes have to open their economy plain and simple as well as other asian nations.   The trade imbalance is not healthy.

As for other posters talking about processing beef and other products in canada, go ahead.   I say move up the chain, but remember it cuts   both ways....the CDN dollar remains artificailly low especially compared to the "crappy" US currency, let see how many jobs are in canada at a 140 CDN per US dollar, not many I would think.

Say, I was wondering, was not NAFTA suppose to get rid of the tarrifs between the countries?   So why is it that CDN INTERNET buyers have to pay taxes/duty on items they purchased outside the country?

The US discourages other nations from opening their domestic economies in 3 key ways;

1) Repatriation of profits - Large US based corporations make money in a host nation, employ a few people, and either export raw materials or import finished ones. All of the means of production stays elsewhere, and the profits are invested elsewhere too. This creates economic growth without economic development, and is a very bad thing for the nation in question, because when the market for the commodity they are selling fluctuates, their economy does too. As for the importation of finished goods? They are purchased with foreign exchange, and as such their prices can fluctuate wildly.

In the case of Japan, the Japanese want very little of what the US makes. Japanese cars, electronics, high tech and pharmaceuticals are all FAR superior to anything the US sells. Why would they open their quality domestic markets to an influx of substandard US goods, which will be protected with duties and tariffs, leading to the demise of their domestic industries.

2) Non Compliance with trade law - The US has a long history of making trade agreements that seem beneficial to all involved, then not holding up their end of the deal. Softwood lumber is only one example of this. Basically, the US promises to open up domestic rice markets in exchange for, say, oil from Venezuala. The Venezualans sell their oil to the US, and also try to export their rice there, the US slaps an entry tax on the rice, and subsidises California rice farmers, killing the Venezualan rice industry despite their deal. So now all Venezuala sells is oil, and when the US seeks other suppliers, the price of that drops too.

Softwood lumber is the same deal. The US signed NAFTA with full knowledge of low Canadian stumpage fees, and the low price of Canadian energy. So the US signed NAFTA, taxed Canadian softwood lumber, and tried to negotiate it's way out of a trade deal that they proposed and ratified in the first place. As a result, the Canadian Softwood lumber industry is in serious decline, even as softwood south of the border remains at astronomical prices due to a housing boom in the gulf states after a terrible hurricane season.

3) US interference in internal affairs - The activities of the US military and intelligence agencies are well documented, especially in Latin America, and the US opposition to Huga Chavez is only a recent example of this. States which allow too much market penetration by US corporations bring activity by the US government as well, who often seeks to protect the interests of industry (big oil in particular) at all costs. The US military escorting KBR contractors in Iraq is only one example of this. US energy/foreign/military policy are inextricably intertwined, with the necessity of "freeing" oppressed people who happen to be sitting upon large petroleum reserves.

The US is it's own worst enemy when it comes to trade law. If they would only follow their own rules, and honor their obligations, there would be alot better chance of the much heralded prospect of "free trade"

 

[TCBF]

In Canada, we are victims of our own propaganda on this one.  GATT did not side with us, and the NAFTA rules - which we negotiated - allow further negotiation and appeals.  So, by all means, lets follow the process.

Historical point:  After we had signed NAFTA, a big hullaballloo was made about it's benefits.  At that point our senior negotiator - Weisman? - was trotted out in front of the cameras to say what a good deal we made.  He said - in ref to the USA "They negotiated like a third world country" or words to that effect.  TV signals do not stop at the border.  Imagine: after every visit PMPM makes to Washington, George, RCALF, some Georgia forestry tycoons, etc. sit around with glasses of JD, run that tape and laugh.

What goes around, comes around.

Tom

 

[GO!!!]

Historical point:   After we had signed NAFTA, a big hullaballloo was made about it's benefits.   At that point our senior negotiator - Weisman? - was trotted out in front of the cameras to say what a good deal we made.   He said - in ref to the USA "They negotiated like a third world country" or words to that effect.  

The point I'm trying to make is that it really does'nt matter what agreements the US signs. They will only follow them as long as they feel like it. Just like us and the Kyoto accord (which was a stupid idea anyway) we signed it with great fanfare, then quietly exempted Ontario from any participation and promptly forgot to implement any of it. Even better? No one can make us!!

This is a valid comparison to the US - make any deal, you can always break it later.

 

[x-zipperhead]

The point I'm trying to make is that it really does'nt matter what agreements the US signs. They will only follow them as long as they feel like it. Just like us and the Kyoto accord (which was a stupid idea anyway) we signed it with great fanfare, then quietly exempted Ontario from any participation and promptly forgot to implement any of it. Even better? No one can make us!!

This is a valid comparison to the US - make any deal, you can always break it later.

Very well said.  This is quite simple.  When both countries sighned this treaty they agreed to have their differences settled by the NAFTA panel, not the WTO or any other organization.  How Canada manages it's forestry is Canada's business.  The US is not living up to it's end of the agreement.  Plain and simple.

 

[TCBF]

"Very well said.  This is quite simple.  When both countries sighned this treaty they agreed to have their differences settled by the NAFTA panel, not the WTO or any other organization.  How Canada manages it's forestry is Canada's business.  The US is not living up to it's end of the agreement.  Plain and simple."

- We agreed differences would be settled by the NAFTA "process" which includes the appeals and other processes used by the Americans.  The process must be allowed to run it's course.

The answer is plain and simple, it just isn't the answer we want to hear.

Tom

 

[geo]

Hmmm... guess we can say "thank you" to Brian Muldoon for his successful negociations

 

[Britney Spears]

That doesn't even make sense. How will we displace Japanese manufacturers if everything we make is substandard crap compared to their's?

 

[TCBF]

"That doesn't even make sense. How will we displace Japanese manufacturers if everything we make is substandard crap compared to their's?"

- Ironic, considering it was an American quality control and productivity expert whose philosophy fired the Japanese commercial expansion in the first place:

http://www.deming.org/theman/articles/articles_50influenced02.html


"Much of the credit for Japan's flight to quality and the making of its world-class reputation goes to quality guru W. Edwards Deming. Deming urged companies to concentrate on constant improvements, improved efficiency and doing it right the first time. Deming was a professor of statistics at New York University when he was invited to Japan in 1950 to run a seminar for business leaders. Since the 1930s, Deming was interested in using statistics as a tool to achieve better quality control. Essentially, his idea was to record the number of product defects, analyze why they happened, institute changes, then record how much quality improved, and to keep refining the process until it is done right.

Deming owes at least part of his legendary status in Japan to a professor named Genichi Taguchi, Japan's home-grown quality management expert, who credited many of the American's ideas for his so-called Taguchi method. Taguchi and others would go on to influence a generation of Japanese engineers who would become the backbone of the nation's growing manufacturing prowess.

"I'm very impressed by the way the Japanese admire [Deming]," said Gregory Clark, president of Japan's Tama University. "They keep on talking about him as if he's a god."

Scholars note that Japan was also receptive to Deming at a time when America was not, in part because Deming's ideas dovetailed with many of Japan's own traditions. Japan had long held hard work and quality craftsmanship as important virtues, and its technology even during the war surprised many Americans. Deming preached that companies must treat workers as associates, not hired hands, and he blamed management if workers were not motivated to work well.

"We imported the system, but modified it to the Japanese style," said Naohiro Yashiro, professor of economics at Sophia University. When Japan hit its peak in the 1980s, forcing many U.S. industries to their knees and prompting Americans to experiment with quality circles and low-inventory manufacturing systems, many of Deming's ideas were rediscovered by the United States.


Tom

 

[GO!!!]

GO......yawn, stereotypical....what do you know what the Japanese want?   You lived there?   I guess you haven't noticed the fact that US aircraft are sold in asia, or that Texas Instruments make the chips that power HDTVs, that apple IPODs are kicking sony's butt,   hollywood (i guess what they can't duplicate they buy-SONYTRI STAR etc, drugs like male enhancements - yeah they aren't popular, or the fact that Microsoft is still number one, NIMH batteries (invented in the US and manufactured under license, etc....but then again Asia especially Japan has such a long history of   free trade.  

However, I can see that you aren't going to be swayed by my opinion and you seem to have a little latent anger towards the US so I'll stay in my corner of cyberspace.  

Just announced the US lowered the Tarriff to less than 1 percent....so I guess that means were now all love each other now?

Riiiiiight. If I disagree with US trade policy, I must hate the US and harbour anger towards it. That's about as convincing as the Israelis calling anyone who disagrees with them anti semitic.  :

Considering that the world's biggest corporation (GM) is floundering, Toyota has risen to the number 3 automaker in america, and US auto workers are being laid off by the thousands, you paint a pretty rosy picture of the US retail industry. In fact I have lived in Japan, since you brought that up, and while there, I never once laid eyes upon a Suburban, the main consumer items from the US being alcohol and fashion items.

Congrats! Tri-star was purchased by foreigners - you must be so proud! Male enhancements?? Now there's an industry to build a career on, there are only 30 of them in court right now for making fraudulent claims...

You are right about the chips though. Texas instruments sells a 15$ chip to go in a 5,000$ TV, made by samsung, or they recieve a 10$ royalty. That's the type of business you need!

As for iPod? Great idea, doing well, now if only I could'nt buy an equivalent machine from Sony for a third less....

The aircraft sold in Asia? Those would be from Boeing - right? The struggling, ridiculously heavily subsidised US union shop? And their competition is...from the former Warsaw pact and Airbus, who outsold them by 400 units last year.

Canada needs the US, alot more than the US needs us, but the powers that be have to wake up a bit. Major issues like the US Federal Debt and Deficit must be addressed, the violation of trade treaties and agreements that removes the credibility of US negotiators, and the "with us or against us" mentality that you, mr. Baker have so thoroughly bought into are setting the States up for a fall. This must not be allowed to happen, but the factors are largely internal, not external.

 

[tomahawk6]

The US economy is the best in the world. Lowest unemployment. Best growth of any western democracy. Deficits are nothing new. The US has run them since 1900. Our highest deficit was during WW2 - 30% of the total economy. Our current deficit is about 4.5% of the total economy - probably too large but not fatal. The biggest competitive advantage the US has is that we dont have to fund a national health care program which seem's to be a lodestone around the neck's of the european democracies. In fact as these countries struggle to pay the ever rising costs they have steradily reduced the size of their armed forces. If this trend continues the US will be the only NATO nation capable of sustained military action. To offset this trend I think the US needs a nation such as India to partner with in the future. The US can supply naval and air power while India would supply much of the manpower. There are many in the world who would like to see the US economy fail, but if that happens the entire world will be in depression.