- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 410
slow down there skura.
Which way is the army heading??
- Thread starter jarko
- Start date
1
12alfa
Guest
quote]
Did it ever occur to you that their was very likely senior level opposition against some (or all) of these issues (eg: The LSVW failed the military's testing procedures; result, government cleared the vehicle for use anyways). Try putting some more thought into your accusations.
Ah yes this may be true, but the right thing to do would have been to not except them, or maybe not run any cources on them, let them rot in full view of the press, and the Canadain people.After this goes on a few times I would thin we as tax payers get the point, would you? There are may ways to tell the truth, but to make that desion we need leadership, and as we have seen all to may times with equipment that is faulty we don't get any from the goverment, and then again from our leaders. It takes LEADERSHIP to say NO!.
If we had taken this view we would not have all the equipment we now have thats total usless and I might add costing us when we need $ badly.
Now the LSVW's are rusting out and what have we to say? We blame the goverement, BS, our leaders are also to blame, they must be held to account, otherwise we could put Cpl's in charge if they are going to be yes men, it would save us a great deal of cash that way and get the same results, would it not?
Picture this... compounds across Canada with LSVW's (brand new) with 0 millage rusting out in front of the people of Canada, would this help?, maybe not but it could not hurt us any more, as this is what we have now, a veh thats at it's life end. Now we start all over again, and round and round we go....
The 3/4 lasted for decades......funny is it not?
Did it ever occur to you that their was very likely senior level opposition against some (or all) of these issues (eg: The LSVW failed the military's testing procedures; result, government cleared the vehicle for use anyways). Try putting some more thought into your accusations.
Ah yes this may be true, but the right thing to do would have been to not except them, or maybe not run any cources on them, let them rot in full view of the press, and the Canadain people.After this goes on a few times I would thin we as tax payers get the point, would you? There are may ways to tell the truth, but to make that desion we need leadership, and as we have seen all to may times with equipment that is faulty we don't get any from the goverment, and then again from our leaders. It takes LEADERSHIP to say NO!.
If we had taken this view we would not have all the equipment we now have thats total usless and I might add costing us when we need $ badly.
Now the LSVW's are rusting out and what have we to say? We blame the goverement, BS, our leaders are also to blame, they must be held to account, otherwise we could put Cpl's in charge if they are going to be yes men, it would save us a great deal of cash that way and get the same results, would it not?
Picture this... compounds across Canada with LSVW's (brand new) with 0 millage rusting out in front of the people of Canada, would this help?, maybe not but it could not hurt us any more, as this is what we have now, a veh thats at it's life end. Now we start all over again, and round and round we go....
The 3/4 lasted for decades......funny is it not?
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 410
P.S. The gov't tells the military leadership what to do. Like it or leave.
- Reaction score
- 10,124
- Points
- 1,260
Skura. War of 1812. Do some research; until then please refrain from posting silly posts like that.
12 Alfa, do you pick and choose the orders a superior passes down to you? One can only fall on their sword once, and sadly, if that happens, someone will usually step up to do what their predecessor would not. When the Minister says, I want x to happen, it is the lawful and professional duties to make it happen. The intergration of women into the Combat Arms was a clear case of this happening. How do we fix this? Read my earlier comment; "It's unfortunate, but things are always going to seem pretty fucked up until their is a major shift in the way Canadians view defence, security, and their military."
There is something I would like to know (but probably never will for obvious reasons). I had an excellent Platoon Warrant in Battalion who really cared for the troops and ensured that we were protected from alot of shit that got dumped down from higher. Have you ever wondered how many stupid and inane things have come down from NDHQ or the MND and have been successfully resisted or tactfully danced away by senior officers who believed it was bad for the troops and for the army as a whole. I am willing to bet there has been a few circumstances in which this happened. What do you think.
12 Alfa, do you pick and choose the orders a superior passes down to you? One can only fall on their sword once, and sadly, if that happens, someone will usually step up to do what their predecessor would not. When the Minister says, I want x to happen, it is the lawful and professional duties to make it happen. The intergration of women into the Combat Arms was a clear case of this happening. How do we fix this? Read my earlier comment; "It's unfortunate, but things are always going to seem pretty fucked up until their is a major shift in the way Canadians view defence, security, and their military."
There is something I would like to know (but probably never will for obvious reasons). I had an excellent Platoon Warrant in Battalion who really cared for the troops and ensured that we were protected from alot of shit that got dumped down from higher. Have you ever wondered how many stupid and inane things have come down from NDHQ or the MND and have been successfully resisted or tactfully danced away by senior officers who believed it was bad for the troops and for the army as a whole. I am willing to bet there has been a few circumstances in which this happened. What do you think.
P
Pugnacious
Guest
For the record 99.9% Americans I talk to find the thought of Canada attacking them very amusing, and take it with good humour.
Esp' when I post the War of 1812 Ren and Stimpy Vid I found.;D Mind you I have stopped 'declaring war' when I come and go across the border...as they don't seem to smile at that anymore. LOL!
Back to the topic...
How does this situation ie.. the decline of the Canadian Military get fixed?
What can the individual soldier do?
Or do we simply hum along with the death rattles, and hope for a conflict to fire up the political will?
Cheers!
P.
Esp' when I post the War of 1812 Ren and Stimpy Vid I found.;D Mind you I have stopped 'declaring war' when I come and go across the border...as they don't seem to smile at that anymore. LOL!
Back to the topic...
How does this situation ie.. the decline of the Canadian Military get fixed?
What can the individual soldier do?
Or do we simply hum along with the death rattles, and hope for a conflict to fire up the political will?
Cheers!
P.
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 230
This what happens when you have a peacetime army for 50 years, and the civilization of the CF (ex Canadian Armed Forces). There is no one left with wartime experience to say. Stop, what do you think you assholes are doing. That won't work because....War clears the mind and get rid of the driftwood. The closes we have come is the early years in Yugo when shit was really happening. The warrior trg come into effect, mine awareness became important etc etc. Potentail combat sharpened the mind. I think the 3VP ultimately benefited from this in the long term when they went on Apollo.
The Army is full of good leaders, witness our overseas performances (with one glitch in Somalia).
As for towing the party line. When in postions of leadership, you protest in private. As long as orders are lawfull, you can make your concerns known and as forceful as you can. if you are still overruled, you say yes, sir and carry on. If you vehemently disagree, you can quit, but you never air the dirty laundry in public. And this goes from the Plt WO up to the CDS. That is a function of leadership. So by saying the leadership isn't supporting us, you cannot say that for sure. Would you trust a Plt Comd who badmouthed the Coy Comd. I sincerely doubt it.
The first stage of moving the Army into a more viable force is increase it's visibility and make it something that Canadians are proud of and are willing to spend tax dollars on. That would be the first major step. The second would be determining what our role is internally and externally. Then with the money, we tailor our forces to those realities and then tailor our trg and equip to meet the forces required. Simple.
The Army is full of good leaders, witness our overseas performances (with one glitch in Somalia).
As for towing the party line. When in postions of leadership, you protest in private. As long as orders are lawfull, you can make your concerns known and as forceful as you can. if you are still overruled, you say yes, sir and carry on. If you vehemently disagree, you can quit, but you never air the dirty laundry in public. And this goes from the Plt WO up to the CDS. That is a function of leadership. So by saying the leadership isn't supporting us, you cannot say that for sure. Would you trust a Plt Comd who badmouthed the Coy Comd. I sincerely doubt it.
The first stage of moving the Army into a more viable force is increase it's visibility and make it something that Canadians are proud of and are willing to spend tax dollars on. That would be the first major step. The second would be determining what our role is internally and externally. Then with the money, we tailor our forces to those realities and then tailor our trg and equip to meet the forces required. Simple.
M
Marine837M
Guest
Ooops touchy subject.......
next...
next...
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
I never said anything about attacking the US...why you took what I said that way I have no idea but I can't control how any of you interpret what I say...you can take it how every you want to take it, but don't accuse me for something I didn't do...and Infanteer, if the only wrong fact from the story I told was that the date was missing, then it's still historically correct...the fact that I'm missing the date doesn't change the fact that it happened...
I know I got carried away, s*** I even admitted to getting carried away, so don't trash what I said because some of it may be farfetched because I know it is...all I was trying to say was if shit happens, we don't quit...read it again and if you still don't get it then I'm sorry
I know I got carried away, s*** I even admitted to getting carried away, so don't trash what I said because some of it may be farfetched because I know it is...all I was trying to say was if shit happens, we don't quit...read it again and if you still don't get it then I'm sorry
Jarnhamar
Army.ca Myth
- Reaction score
- 6,713
- Points
- 1,160
Skura i sent you a PM to try and get my point across (and keep the topic on course).
It's unfortunate but i think the only thing that will really hit home to Canadians and instill the fact that we need to change how we do things is if an embarrassing tragedy happens. the only way many people seem to learn is the hardway.
It's unfortunate but i think the only thing that will really hit home to Canadians and instill the fact that we need to change how we do things is if an embarrassing tragedy happens. the only way many people seem to learn is the hardway.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Funny thing is when ever someone asks me why i want to join i say the same exact phrase "Its just something i have to do"
-------
Whoa, never thought this would be a topic breaker. The reason why i was asking this question is because i have completed 2 of my test so far in the application process for the regular force, I had my head skrewed on straight and strong and was determined to try becoming a great Canadian soldier, untill i recieved a letter from the Royal Marine Commandos (UK) that i would be able to go there and do my tests. I have signed up for the infantry and i was hopeing to make it my career. Hopeing that one day i will be given a chance to either join the SARTECH's or JTF2 .
--------
On another note, what reallly turns me steaming red is when i tell someone that i signed up for the Canadian army and they start laughing and saying garbage about how "the army SUCKS". Yes i always try taking there heads out of their ass's and giving them a lesson. But now when i think about it, it seriously looks like its getting worser and worser. Thats why i am glad i can get some great opinions and thanks for the lessons in military history. This is a very good read!.
M
Marine837M
Guest
Join the Royal Marines if you have a chance...go on do it.....be the best...Commando training is ballbagging but once your through all that shit
you will be on top of the world.
30 weeks of hell.... for years of laughs,drinking,shagging,travel...the list goes on and on and on and on....
I would never put anyone off joining the Royal Marines.
Good Luck,whatever you do,keep me posted...
Marine837M
you will be on top of the world.
30 weeks of hell.... for years of laughs,drinking,shagging,travel...the list goes on and on and on and on....
I would never put anyone off joining the Royal Marines.
Good Luck,whatever you do,keep me posted...
Marine837M
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Sorry to drag this topic off course (yet again) but this will be the last time, I figure that since this is where I started this I'd end it here as well...
I apologize for the comments made in my last few posts in this thread...I understand that since this is a website it's a lot harder to tell when someone's having some fun, playing around and getting carried away with their post, and when there being serious about every single little word in his or her posts...
I'll try to keep the personal opinions to myself and only post the facts after I've done a little investigating on the subject at hand...
I apologize for the comments made in my last few posts in this thread...I understand that since this is a website it's a lot harder to tell when someone's having some fun, playing around and getting carried away with their post, and when there being serious about every single little word in his or her posts...
I'll try to keep the personal opinions to myself and only post the facts after I've done a little investigating on the subject at hand...
1
12alfa
Guest
[quote ]
12 Alfa, do you pick and choose the orders a superior passes down to you?
Better question would be , is this order going to result in someone getting hurt? Gennerally no I don't, but then again I have good officers around me giving good orders. I have also seen bad orders, should I speak up, or let them do damage?
I follow 99% of the orders given to me, as I have allways did. Now in my older years now, I will tend to voice my displeasure (behind close doors ) to anyone giving unreasonable ones.
Have you ever wondered how many stupid and inane things have come down from NDHQ or the MND and have been successfully resisted or tactfully danced away by senior officers who believed it was bad for the troops and for the army as a whole. I am willing to bet there has been a few circumstances in which this happened. What do you think.
Yes this happends, but the we see the reversal of this also. Most of the BS is filterd out that can be filtered.
All though i still maintain that the current status quo of letting a major equipment (being faulty) to enter the system is bad for the army in general, and leds to more of the same. At some time someone has to make a stand for the good of the Army and the forces in general. If we had people who did this we would not have a sat system that costs millions but was never used, a tank upgrade that cost millions just to be withdrawn for service, a avgp upgrade/refit that cost millions just to take out of service, a m113 upgrade...ah well you get my point. Just following orders has never been a good excuse, in war and in peace.
What we need is a system that get the best bang for a buck, we don't have this now. Saying we must follow orders don't cut it in my view, standing up for the right thing will breed good leaders and be seen by the troops as such.
In any other busness this atitude is not the norm, we at my work would not last 1 year if we recev'd faulty equipment that "head office" sent us, nor would you i would think buy a car that did not past the required test.
But we as you pointed out must, for the reasons of "following orders"?
No this is not right, test are there to ensure our troops well being and said equipment to operate in a matter in which we deem nessary.
If we say and do nothing, we will remain in the state we are in, a fleet from 1/4 ton to MBT's that don't do what we need of them for a reasonable time.
The equipment we need should be tested and proven by the people who use them, not by the goverement, they are there to provide the funds, and only the funds for the best results. Unlike what we have now.
It's like me buying jeans for my 19 year old daughter, it just does not work for her, lol
It's time for a change, or nothin will get better for those who will follow us, do you agree?
12Alfa
12 Alfa, do you pick and choose the orders a superior passes down to you?
Better question would be , is this order going to result in someone getting hurt? Gennerally no I don't, but then again I have good officers around me giving good orders. I have also seen bad orders, should I speak up, or let them do damage?
I follow 99% of the orders given to me, as I have allways did. Now in my older years now, I will tend to voice my displeasure (behind close doors ) to anyone giving unreasonable ones.
Have you ever wondered how many stupid and inane things have come down from NDHQ or the MND and have been successfully resisted or tactfully danced away by senior officers who believed it was bad for the troops and for the army as a whole. I am willing to bet there has been a few circumstances in which this happened. What do you think.
Yes this happends, but the we see the reversal of this also. Most of the BS is filterd out that can be filtered.
All though i still maintain that the current status quo of letting a major equipment (being faulty) to enter the system is bad for the army in general, and leds to more of the same. At some time someone has to make a stand for the good of the Army and the forces in general. If we had people who did this we would not have a sat system that costs millions but was never used, a tank upgrade that cost millions just to be withdrawn for service, a avgp upgrade/refit that cost millions just to take out of service, a m113 upgrade...ah well you get my point. Just following orders has never been a good excuse, in war and in peace.
What we need is a system that get the best bang for a buck, we don't have this now. Saying we must follow orders don't cut it in my view, standing up for the right thing will breed good leaders and be seen by the troops as such.
In any other busness this atitude is not the norm, we at my work would not last 1 year if we recev'd faulty equipment that "head office" sent us, nor would you i would think buy a car that did not past the required test.
But we as you pointed out must, for the reasons of "following orders"?
No this is not right, test are there to ensure our troops well being and said equipment to operate in a matter in which we deem nessary.
If we say and do nothing, we will remain in the state we are in, a fleet from 1/4 ton to MBT's that don't do what we need of them for a reasonable time.
The equipment we need should be tested and proven by the people who use them, not by the goverement, they are there to provide the funds, and only the funds for the best results. Unlike what we have now.
It's like me buying jeans for my 19 year old daughter, it just does not work for her, lol
It's time for a change, or nothin will get better for those who will follow us, do you agree?
12Alfa
- Reaction score
- 5,691
- Points
- 1,060
Skura,
And a LITTLE knowledge is a dangerous thing ;D
And a LITTLE knowledge is a dangerous thing ;D
P
Pugnacious
Guest
Tech' speaking we were not 'Canadians' yet.
Also having Wellington, and his Veteran troops, and some kick ass angry Indians who hated the Americans, and French was a huge help against the Yanks who at the time had mainly sketchy trained, and equiped militia filing the ranks of their little border raids.
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&safe=off&q=The+war+of+1812&meta=
Anyway...blah blah blah. (i'll promote you) ;D
Cheers!
P. ;D
Also having Wellington, and his Veteran troops, and some kick ass angry Indians who hated the Americans, and French was a huge help against the Yanks who at the time had mainly sketchy trained, and equiped militia filing the ranks of their little border raids.
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&safe=off&q=The+war+of+1812&meta=
Anyway...blah blah blah. (i'll promote you) ;D
Cheers!
P. ;D
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
"Generals should be able to tell the politicans that we need to keep more troops at home so we can train new one".
This is exactly what Army Generals like LGen Jefferies (the last CLS), LGen Hillier (the present CLS), BGen Fenton (the past commander of LFWA) and BGen Beare (the present commander of LFWA) have been doing over the last few years. The results include the reduction of our Bosnia committment (Ops PALLADIUM/BRONZE), withdrawal of the force from Haiti (Op HALO) and the huge reduction of the Afghanistan force (Op ATHENA). The CLS aim is to try to get the Army a "breathing space" with the smallest possible number of troops deployed (no more than a single battalion group) for a couple of years so that we can tackle the huge training bill that has been accumulating and is now choking the Army, especially at the level of training NCOs (the backbone of the Army).
" shouldn't take six months to a year for people wanting to join."
You're right. an Army forum, it's worth pointing out that under the unified "CF" system, the Army does not control the Canadian Forces Recruiting Group. All the ArmyCommanders have raised this concern about the "purple" recruiting system, several times, and the CLS has taken this on with the VCDS (who owns the CFRG) but the sad fact is that the recruiters don't dance to the Army's tune. The CFRG claims that a "clean" file (one with no complications, especially medical or criminal) can be processed in a few weeks. This is certainly true in a lot of cases, but the fact is that the medical review process is way, way too slow and this what seems to be causing the frustration. As well, the Govt of Canada insists on extremely strict medical entry standards, perhaps to avoid a large number of medical compenastion claims from people who get enrolled in the CF with a pre-existing condition. I have talked to our recruiting folks abuot the problem, and they state that some of the other problems are:
-recruits who don't bother to get all the information together for their application, or produce the wrong info, thus causing a delay;
-recruits with criminal records who must seek a pardon before enrolling (this takes time-it is a civvy process not military...);
-recruiters losing files (this doesn't happen as much any moer-they are much better now);
-Res units that fail to enrol an individual once the Recruiting Centre has completed processing. Enrolment in the Res is a unit function, ansd sometimes in our Brigade we have found uor units dragging their asses on this, which is extremely frustrating for the recruit and causes us to lose some of them.
All to say that there is lots of blame to go around, but we definitely need to speed up the process. The new "conditional enrolment" trial that is going on in the Reserve now may fix things, since it will allow a recruit to be enrolled temporarily pending the completion of their medical review. We'll see. Cheers.
This is exactly what Army Generals like LGen Jefferies (the last CLS), LGen Hillier (the present CLS), BGen Fenton (the past commander of LFWA) and BGen Beare (the present commander of LFWA) have been doing over the last few years. The results include the reduction of our Bosnia committment (Ops PALLADIUM/BRONZE), withdrawal of the force from Haiti (Op HALO) and the huge reduction of the Afghanistan force (Op ATHENA). The CLS aim is to try to get the Army a "breathing space" with the smallest possible number of troops deployed (no more than a single battalion group) for a couple of years so that we can tackle the huge training bill that has been accumulating and is now choking the Army, especially at the level of training NCOs (the backbone of the Army).
" shouldn't take six months to a year for people wanting to join."
You're right. an Army forum, it's worth pointing out that under the unified "CF" system, the Army does not control the Canadian Forces Recruiting Group. All the ArmyCommanders have raised this concern about the "purple" recruiting system, several times, and the CLS has taken this on with the VCDS (who owns the CFRG) but the sad fact is that the recruiters don't dance to the Army's tune. The CFRG claims that a "clean" file (one with no complications, especially medical or criminal) can be processed in a few weeks. This is certainly true in a lot of cases, but the fact is that the medical review process is way, way too slow and this what seems to be causing the frustration. As well, the Govt of Canada insists on extremely strict medical entry standards, perhaps to avoid a large number of medical compenastion claims from people who get enrolled in the CF with a pre-existing condition. I have talked to our recruiting folks abuot the problem, and they state that some of the other problems are:
-recruits who don't bother to get all the information together for their application, or produce the wrong info, thus causing a delay;
-recruits with criminal records who must seek a pardon before enrolling (this takes time-it is a civvy process not military...);
-recruiters losing files (this doesn't happen as much any moer-they are much better now);
-Res units that fail to enrol an individual once the Recruiting Centre has completed processing. Enrolment in the Res is a unit function, ansd sometimes in our Brigade we have found uor units dragging their asses on this, which is extremely frustrating for the recruit and causes us to lose some of them.
All to say that there is lots of blame to go around, but we definitely need to speed up the process. The new "conditional enrolment" trial that is going on in the Reserve now may fix things, since it will allow a recruit to be enrolled temporarily pending the completion of their medical review. We'll see. Cheers.
Similar threads
