What camps should there be?

[primer]

I took WLC back in 87 In Pet it was the best CLI course. I do remember the Regs and CIC working well. The Patrol 2ics were Reg Force Personal.We had RCD, Airborne Combat Engineers and VIII Hussars. We had M/cpl Saltal from the Crazy 8s

 

[Jason Jarvis]

Originally posted by Franko:
[qb] Wilderness like I took in the 80‘s should be back but only at one camp....national selection. Reg force instructors with CIC workin together.

Just like my course. Was it ever hard.[/qb]

Why was it hard, Franko? I remember seeing what I thought were Wilderness cadets returning to Argonaut in ‘90 at the end of their last FTX, and they all looked like crap -- exhausted and filthy, but with that gleam in their eyes that said they‘d mastered whatever demons they faced. Made me want to take it.

So I did the national-level Aircrew Survival Instructors Course in Bagotville the next summer, and knew exactly how they felt.

Tell us about the course. Why isn‘t it offered today, given the army cadets‘ focus on "adventure training"?

 

[Franko]

The Wilderness course I took in the 80s was a bit different than it is today.

I hit the ground on the first day and was told to immediatly change into combats, gear up my ruck and get out on the road in 20min. Next came a 9km ruck march to the biv site...which we had to clear ourselves for setting up our hooches for the night.

Next day for PT was a 10-14km run with 25 PU and SU at every km. I can‘t quite remember the distance....we‘re talking 87.

Before EVERY meal...50 PU and SU.

There was patroling, canoeing, hikeing, feildcraft, survival trg...and other activities.

The big tests was the 6 day canoe trip, 50km in 2 days hike/patrol(undetected) and the 3 day solo.

The CIC were mostly hard core officers as well as the NCOs( from the previous course).

They were supported by troops from the CAR, 2PPCLI, and 2 RCR. These guys usually gave us the PT and extra PT to toughen us up for the humps/ patroling.

6 weeks later and 35 lbs lighter...I was in shape, better than ever before. I got back to my corps and blew their socks off. Ran a complete 13 km ruck march in 1hr 45 min. Left my CO in the dust...did I ever get it when they caught up. I did over 20 one arm push ups just to prove to a moouthy cadet that he wasn‘t as in shape as me, he stopped at 9(he was a BIG boy too).

The entire point of this course that I got from it is anything you put your mind to you CAN do it and LEAD the troops to success.

Wilderness Leadership...toughest course I ever took in cadets. Started out with 35...graduated 15.

Regards

 

[Jason Jarvis]

Ah, the good old days! Now THAT was a course, especially for a 16-year olds.

When did Wilderness go away? Its replacements appear to be CLI - Adventure and Leadership & Adventure, which look to be little more than cadet versions of Outward Bound courses or Venturer/Rover camps (for Scouts). I‘ve no doubt they‘re challenging, but not very "army."

Assuming all cadets are treated within the boundaries of CHAP, can anyone give me a valid reason why it‘s not offered today? Does it boil down to the fieldcraft/patrolling elements? Or are there other ulterior motives at work?

 

[patt]

parnets probably bitched about it and so they got rid of it,just like D&C it was one of the best cources to get on it was hard long days now its turned into ****

 

[Franko]

As far as I know Wilderness Leadership is gone from the earth...replaced by 2 three week courses that doesn‘t even cover a quarter of what we did. Too bad, it was a great confidence builder for us all. We had 4 females with us...they all carried their own weight and graduated.

What a great bunch of troops...hard workers and great leaders.

Wonder what they‘re up to these days?

Regards

 

[2573army]

Originally posted by Jason:
[qb] Ah, the good old days! Now THAT was a course, especially for a 16-year olds.

When did Wilderness go away? Its replacements appear to be CLI - Adventure and Leadership & Adventure, which look to be little more than cadet versions of Outward Bound courses or Venturer/Rover camps (for Scouts). I‘ve no doubt they‘re challenging, but not very "army."

Assuming all cadets are treated within the boundaries of CHAP, can anyone give me a valid reason why it‘s not offered today? Does it boil down to the fieldcraft/patrolling elements? Or are there other ulterior motives at work? [/qb]

Leadership & Challenge, which I‘m assuming you‘re trying to say through Leadership & Adventure was one of the first Army Cadet standardized courses, ever. It simply has gone through about 10 names but the point of the course has almost never changed because it was never really military at all. The only large changes were in 1970 and 1998 (when the activities changed, only slightly each time though)

CLI Adventure is the fourth incarnation of the course as such, Wilderness and Patrolling being the two best known. The reason for the change was mainly the shift in the RCACC Training programme circa 1999, but also b/c the course required leadership, and training resources that the CF couldn‘t offer the CSTCs anymore. At Vernon there was actually a gap in years between the courses because the CF wasn‘t able to supply the bodies that the CSTC needed to run the course; CIC doesn‘t have the appropriate training for it (nor should they, in m view). CLI Adventure is a solid outdoors course, little light on the leadership though.

Outward Bound is actually done by the Cadet programme, and has been for like 20 years....

 

[future-fighter]

they did at one point have a lifeguard course.

 

[q_1966]

It would be nice if they brought back the pioneer course, rope bridges, tripods that can lift an iltis off the ground, I wanted to do that, not to mention wilderness first aid and basic firefighting

 

[rwgill]

As far as I know Wilderness Leadership is gone from the earth...replaced by 2 three week courses that doesn‘t even cover a quarter of what we did. Too bad, it was a great confidence builder for us all. We had 4 females with us...they all carried their own weight and graduated.

Wilderness Leadership loosely became Cadet Leader Instructor Patrolling, which is now loosely CLI Adventure.

The last Wilderness Leadership Course was in the early 90's.  I know there was a course in 1992.  Can't remember 1993.

 

[my72jeep]

Why was it hard, Franko? I remember seeing what I thought were Wilderness cadets returning to Argonaut in ‘90 at the end of their last FTX, and they all looked like crap -- exhausted and filthy, but with that gleam in their eyes that said they‘d mastered whatever demons they faced. Made me want to take it.

So I did the national-level Aircrew Survival Instructors Course in Bagotville the next summer, and knew exactly how they felt.

Tell us about the course. Why isn‘t it offered today, given the army cadets‘ focus on "adventure training"?

I was the senior instructor on wild 90\91in Argo. I was a instructor 88'89'90'91. 90 was the last of the hard core years. After 90 it kept getting cut back for financial reasoned then the "direction of the cadet movement was changing again" When I say hard core The cadets arrived at what ever time am or pm off a plane train boat or bus. went thought intake, supply, changed into combats stored their gear and off to the field. no stop at the canteen or mess or the rest of the night in a bed you went to the field at 2am and set up a hooch.
But in the 25 years since I joined Cadets all the courses in the first post have been in the CCM in one form or an other.

 

[medaid]

I know! How about a LIFE SKILLS CAMP?

Where you get taught for two weeks how to make smart decisions, and apply common sense, since many youths seem to lack that these days? Where financial planning is taught to you, and that you're fed the information with regards to job application, how to get a job, how to retain a job.

I think this would be a more beneficial course then all the other hooah rah rah courses.

Develop professionalism in the youths.

 

[q_1966]

How about alot more survival training, sure ground to air signals are covered, as well as how to build a shelter and fire, but How do you set up a trap/snare and more importantly, once you caught your squirrel/rabbit etc, how to skin, prep, & cook it etc. what are your Edible plants & how about an avalanche awareness course for those in the mountains...

 

[medaid]

How about alot more survival training, sure ground to air signals are covered, as well as how to build a shelter and fire, but How do you set up a trap/snare and more importantly, once you caught your squirrel/rabbit etc, how to skin, prep, & cook it etc. what are your Edible plants & how about an avalanche awareness course for those in the mountains...

That's taught in Survival Instructor.

 

[my72jeep]

How about alot more survival training, sure ground to air signals are covered, as well as how to build a shelter and fire, but How do you set up a trap/snare and more importantly, once you caught your squirrel/rabbit etc, how to skin, prep, & cook it etc. what are your Edible plants & how about an avalanche awareness course for those in the mountains...

the original Wilderness Leadership had a 3 day solo where the cadet had to use all the skills they were taught during the summer to feed and shelter themselves.

 

[cdn031]

This is a great thread - and frankly something that should be discussed more and incorporated into course development.

I'd like to see an "Engineering" course. Bridge Building, construction etc
I also like the idea of a Medic course - Build on the foundation of First aid, but gung ho it up enough to cover TCCC. (No need for rifles - don't panic folks!  ;D)

The CF flyover was an outstanding course - we started with 52 in 1980, got trained up by Airborne staff in Pet for three weeks, ended up with 38 and then off to be assigned in a section of 3RCR. A number of us got assigned as Radio ops in the section as our Voice Procedure was better than most of the troops - a sweet job as you knew what was going on! (and humped the radio - grin).

Being an old guy I don't subscribe to the "child Soldier" paranoia, largely because we need to look at what draws kids to the organizations and shape it as such, within boundaries of course.  I do, however, detect a certain defensiveness in younger members of the Reserve and Regs - i.e. "if you want to carry a rifle join the regs/reserves" which, like the Cadpat question (without wanting to cause a whole other debate) is nonsense. 

 

[my72jeep]

This is a great thread - and frankly something that should be discussed more and incorporated into course development.

I'd like to see an "Engineering" course. Bridge Building, construction etc
I also like the idea of a Medic course - Build on the foundation of First aid, but gung ho it up enough to cover TCCC. (No need for rifles - don't panic folks!  ;D)

They tried a pioneer course a few years back on the west coast I though it was a good idea but it was canceled.

 

[medaid]

No on the idea of a 'medic' course. The only medical training offered to general soldiers in the CF is Combat First Aid, essentially SFA with military components. TCCC techniques and skills are governed by the Surgeon General, and there are no actual equivalences on the streets, teaching these to 12-18yrs olds in the Cadet organization just won't fly. Not to mention most of these cadets can't get access to the equipment we use anyways. The cost are prohibitive for a teenager. A CAT, QC, Izzy, Asherman, 2 x TB, a wound dressing, NPA, lube and needle are the basics of a IFAK and THAT will run you close to $200. Also the BIG HUGE liability issue.. Cadets won't practice this skill enough. Not a realistic camp to consider. 

 

[NL_engineer]

This is a great thread - and frankly something that should be discussed more and incorporated into course development.

I'd like to see an "Engineering" course. Bridge Building, construction etc

I don't think this is a good idea, due to SAFETY, for a standard bridge such as a MGB or Accrow (a 1000 lbs part being lifted by 8, 12 year olds for example = major safety infraction IMO) plus the requirement for at least 4 Engineer (reg of reserve) MCPLs or above to supervise.

If they were going to build an NSB it would be alright, but then you get into the issue of tools etc.

and don't ask about the explosives, as that is WAY out of the question.


Just my 2 cents

 

[rmc_wannabe]

How about a comms course? I'm not talking about a "oh lets dick around with a FRS and pretty we're cool" course, i'm talking field expediant antennas, PROPER voice procedure, and different forms of radio (HF,VHF,HAMM...all non CCI ofcourse). I wouldn't mind that asking for the summer. . .