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Recce41 said:
The current naval ranks are OS, AB, LS, MS, PO2, PO1, CPO2, CPO1. Just prior to unification they were the same, except there was no MS.
Warrant Officers in the US and Canadian Armies - confusion re: status?
- Thread starter ibilola
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The current naval ranks are OS, AB, LS, MS, PO2, PO1, CPO2, CPO1. Just prior to unification they were the same, except there was no MS.
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Recce41 said:
Some of the confusion probably comes from the classes of PO and CPO coming and going from time to time. From what I understand, there were originally just POs and CPOs, then classes were established, then eliminated, then returned in the 'fifties or early'sixties. Apart from the last, I don't have any idea about the timelines.
The Canadian PO1 is equivalent to a CPO in the Royal Navy. CPO2 is equivalent to a WO2 in the Royal Navy (rank introduced 2004), and the CPO1 is equivalent to a WO1 (Warrant Officer Class One) in the RN. The senior WO on a RN ship is the Executive Warrant Officer.
RN WOs are addressed as 'Mr' by Officers and 'Sir' by ratings.
The Warrant Officer rank was reintroduced into the RN in 1970 as the 'Fleet Chief Petty Officer' and the name was changed to 'Warrant Officer' in the mid 80s.
There were no WOs in the RN between 1949 and 1970
RN WOs are addressed as 'Mr' by Officers and 'Sir' by ratings.
The Warrant Officer rank was reintroduced into the RN in 1970 as the 'Fleet Chief Petty Officer' and the name was changed to 'Warrant Officer' in the mid 80s.
There were no WOs in the RN between 1949 and 1970
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A lil history of the WO Rank. It is stated that the WO rank is a Government General Commissioned Officer, not Queen/King Commissioned. This is from the old British Army, that states :
A Warrant will be issued to a Soldier promoted from the Sgt rank. He holds this Warrant superior to NCOs but subordinate to Officers. Even though he is an Officer, he will not be saluted.
But today in the Canadian Army only CWOs get a scroll. The first Warrants were in soldiers in Stores and Tpt. First issued in 1879. They are NOT Snr NCOs but WOs.
Thank you for posting that....
I am tired of arguing with people ( usually of the commissioned nature) who insist that WO's are merely Senior NCOs....
Do you have refs for the quote? I would greatly appreciate it....
Cheers
SB
A Warrant will be issued to a Soldier promoted from the Sgt rank. He holds this Warrant superior to NCOs but subordinate to Officers. Even though he is an Officer, he will not be saluted.
But today in the Canadian Army only CWOs get a scroll. The first Warrants were in soldiers in Stores and Tpt. First issued in 1879. They are NOT Snr NCOs but WOs.
Thank you for posting that....
I am tired of arguing with people ( usually of the commissioned nature) who insist that WO's are merely Senior NCOs....
Do you have refs for the quote? I would greatly appreciate it....
Cheers
SB
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Steel Badger said:
I managed to find a quote that says that a WO is indeed considered a Snr NCO in Canada: ???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_officer#Canadian_Forces
But hey, What would this site know?? They still have us under the heading "Canadian Armed Forces"
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Steel Badger said:
http://www.recruiting.forces.gc.ca/engraph/faq/index_e.aspx#q16
King's Regulations and Orders for the Army (1908)
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armyvern said:
So does the National Defence Act.
Steel Badger said:
WOs in the British Army, and to my knowledge in all other Commonwealth Armies, are senior non-commissioned ranks who rank between a non-commissioned officer and a commissioned officer. The British Army's Queens Regulations lists Warrant Officers as distinct from soldiers, NCOs and Commissioned Officers. AllWarrant Officers in the British Army receive a Warrant from the Secretary of State for Defence.
The confusion about USWarrant Officers which I mentioned in my previous posting , seems to revolve around the view in many Commonwealth Armies that they are not quite 'real' officers. Hence the lack of clarity and arguments about their mess status and saluting when serving with the British Army. Sometimes they are allowed in Officers Messes but on other occasions they are accommodated in WOs and Sergeants' Messes.
Are Canadian Chief Warrant Officers ever accommodated in US Officers Clubs by mistake?
My trade (Comm Rsch) has exchange billets in the US, and I have served extensively with US folks, in the US, Canada, and while deployed.
Many of those I have worked with are U.S. Army Warrant Officers. I can categorically state that, in my experience, they certainly live up to their reputation of being technical masters within their Branch. I have not seen any confusion in Canada that they are entitled to use the officers mess. On several occasions (both operationally and while at static sites) I have seen U.S. Army WOs treat Canadian WOs as peers. But, this has more to do with having earned (and proven) the ability to work at the same level, than it does with the rank chart. Under NATO convention there is just no Canadian (or Commonwealth) equivalent to the U.S. Army WO program. Which is really too bad, as it tends to attract some of their most professional NCOs (again in my opinion).
As for Canadian CWO's being admitted to US Officer Messes - no. Isn't supposed to happen. However that is not to say that a CWO (or any other NCO) may be invited into the Officers mess on occasion. I would say that the Officer core (theirs and ours) might be less prone to raise their eyebrows if a CWO is in their mess (as a guest) than a senior or junior NCO.
I am currently working on a Warrant Officer board for my mess (a combined mess). It has examples of all the CWO ranks from the Commonwealth countries, as well as a few examples of WO ranks from all the countries back to WWI. Mind you all the ranks badges were pretty much interchangeable between the Commonwealth countries up until the 1950's.
I had no problem amassing the ranks from each country. The real problem is finding a suitable quote to include with the display. I wanted to have a quote on what the Canadian Warrant Officer (WO, MWO, CWO) is, and what he/she represents and is responsible for. I can find tons of British documentation to give that answer, and lots of Canadian documentation from before the 70's, but I can find precious little in any current Canadian Forces documentation. Including the large number of documents the Canadian Forces Defence Academy has on their website. They just released a number of leadership publications in 2005, but not a quote to be found on the Warrant Officer. That was my experience, but I admit that I haven't done a total search yet.
Anyone out their have a modern quote from an official source, on the role of today's Warrant Officer in the Canadian Forces?
Rgds ...
Many of those I have worked with are U.S. Army Warrant Officers. I can categorically state that, in my experience, they certainly live up to their reputation of being technical masters within their Branch. I have not seen any confusion in Canada that they are entitled to use the officers mess. On several occasions (both operationally and while at static sites) I have seen U.S. Army WOs treat Canadian WOs as peers. But, this has more to do with having earned (and proven) the ability to work at the same level, than it does with the rank chart. Under NATO convention there is just no Canadian (or Commonwealth) equivalent to the U.S. Army WO program. Which is really too bad, as it tends to attract some of their most professional NCOs (again in my opinion).
As for Canadian CWO's being admitted to US Officer Messes - no. Isn't supposed to happen. However that is not to say that a CWO (or any other NCO) may be invited into the Officers mess on occasion. I would say that the Officer core (theirs and ours) might be less prone to raise their eyebrows if a CWO is in their mess (as a guest) than a senior or junior NCO.
I am currently working on a Warrant Officer board for my mess (a combined mess). It has examples of all the CWO ranks from the Commonwealth countries, as well as a few examples of WO ranks from all the countries back to WWI. Mind you all the ranks badges were pretty much interchangeable between the Commonwealth countries up until the 1950's.
I had no problem amassing the ranks from each country. The real problem is finding a suitable quote to include with the display. I wanted to have a quote on what the Canadian Warrant Officer (WO, MWO, CWO) is, and what he/she represents and is responsible for. I can find tons of British documentation to give that answer, and lots of Canadian documentation from before the 70's, but I can find precious little in any current Canadian Forces documentation. Including the large number of documents the Canadian Forces Defence Academy has on their website. They just released a number of leadership publications in 2005, but not a quote to be found on the Warrant Officer. That was my experience, but I admit that I haven't done a total search yet.
Anyone out their have a modern quote from an official source, on the role of today's Warrant Officer in the Canadian Forces?
Rgds ...
EW said:
Interesting, but one of your Armour Recce WOs stated the following on the 'pprune' website link I gave earlier:
recce41 wrote:
"When we have US soldiers come up and stay, US WOs stay in the WOs/Sgts shacks and eat in mess.
The Marines try the Officer thing here, the Base Commander and Base RSM refused they stay in the Officers shacks.
I am a Armour Recce WO regular force, 25 yrs in and still going."
The exact status of US WOs has led to heated comment, disagreement and insults on various websites.
Ibilola
I would suspect that there is likely a pretty big curve in the CF when it comes to the levels of understanding of the US Warrant Officer program, and if there is a grey area than a Base Commander or CO certainly has it within their purview to interpret the situation as best they can.
Having said that, it shouldn't happen, but surprise surprise - it does. I would suspect that the US WOs affected probably just grinned and bunked in where they were told, because it wasn't worth rocking the boat.
In my experience, under existing agreements between Canada and the US (not to mention NATO) we have to give the US personnel the same standard of respect/courtesy they are entitled to under their system.
For an idea of what respect/position US Army WOs are given, one only has to check the US military publication FM 22-100;
"Title 10 USC authorizes the commissioning of warrant officers (WO1) upon promotion to chief warrant officer (CW2). These commissioned warrant officers are direct representatives of the president of the United States. They derive their authority from the same source as commissioned officers but remain specialists, in contrast to commissioned officers, who are generalists. Warrant officers can and do command detachments, units, activities, and vessels as well as lead, coach, train, and counsel subordinates. As leaders and technical experts, they provide valuable skills, guidance, and expertise to commanders and organizations in their particular field."
(Para A-3, Field Manual 22-100)"
Oh well, I suspect that Canadian commanders will continue to interpret their understanding of US Army Warrant Officers, based upon their experience. Unless of course a US military commander intervenes and asks for his personnel to be treated as the commissioned officers they are.
On a slightly different track, the NATO equivalences chart lists a Canadian MCpl as being equivalent to a British Army Sergeant. Both are considered E-5s. Based on this I have seen several MCpls (from different Branches) given SNCO quarters/messing in the UK. Although, if they are there as part of a Canadian unit, the unit CSM/RSM would generally tell the Brits that the MCpls will remain in JNCO barracks/messing.
Rgds....
I would suspect that there is likely a pretty big curve in the CF when it comes to the levels of understanding of the US Warrant Officer program, and if there is a grey area than a Base Commander or CO certainly has it within their purview to interpret the situation as best they can.
Having said that, it shouldn't happen, but surprise surprise - it does. I would suspect that the US WOs affected probably just grinned and bunked in where they were told, because it wasn't worth rocking the boat.
In my experience, under existing agreements between Canada and the US (not to mention NATO) we have to give the US personnel the same standard of respect/courtesy they are entitled to under their system.
For an idea of what respect/position US Army WOs are given, one only has to check the US military publication FM 22-100;
"Title 10 USC authorizes the commissioning of warrant officers (WO1) upon promotion to chief warrant officer (CW2). These commissioned warrant officers are direct representatives of the president of the United States. They derive their authority from the same source as commissioned officers but remain specialists, in contrast to commissioned officers, who are generalists. Warrant officers can and do command detachments, units, activities, and vessels as well as lead, coach, train, and counsel subordinates. As leaders and technical experts, they provide valuable skills, guidance, and expertise to commanders and organizations in their particular field."
(Para A-3, Field Manual 22-100)"
Oh well, I suspect that Canadian commanders will continue to interpret their understanding of US Army Warrant Officers, based upon their experience. Unless of course a US military commander intervenes and asks for his personnel to be treated as the commissioned officers they are.
On a slightly different track, the NATO equivalences chart lists a Canadian MCpl as being equivalent to a British Army Sergeant. Both are considered E-5s. Based on this I have seen several MCpls (from different Branches) given SNCO quarters/messing in the UK. Although, if they are there as part of a Canadian unit, the unit CSM/RSM would generally tell the Brits that the MCpls will remain in JNCO barracks/messing.
Rgds....
Another quote from the US Army's Warrant Officer Candidate School website;
http://usawocc.army.mil/whatiswo.htm
"...Candidates who successfully complete Warrant Officer Candidate School are appointed in the grade of Warrant Officer One. When promoted to Chief Warrant Officer Two, warrant officers are commissioned by the President and have the same legal status as their traditional commissioned officer counterparts...."
http://usawocc.army.mil/whatiswo.htm
"...Candidates who successfully complete Warrant Officer Candidate School are appointed in the grade of Warrant Officer One. When promoted to Chief Warrant Officer Two, warrant officers are commissioned by the President and have the same legal status as their traditional commissioned officer counterparts...."
EW said:
That would be the logical argument. However, many in the British Army appear to be arguing that US WOs do not have NATO Officer Status (i.e. OF coding) and that under Queen's Regulations, WOs shouldn't be saluted, especially the US WO1 who is appointed by Warrant. The US WO1 who was asking to be treated as an officer on the website received a hostile reception from the British WOs!!
I can understand why Master Corporals, as equivalents to British Lance-Corporals, are excluded from British WOs and Sergeants Messes though!
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IB
A MCpl is not equal to a LCpl. He is equal to a Cpl/Sgt, this depends on his quals. On one tour we MCpls stayed in the Sgts quarters some of our Sgts/WOs didn't like it, but the RSM said too bad. This is a point in reverse. As for my post over on the other one, it is the Base Commanders judgement. We had some US soldiers from Hood come up for winter warfare training. One or two of the Sgts didn't like that we had put Cpls incharge of the tent group. The OC had one point, if some guy from Texas could build a igloo, or snow cave he would accept their point. If not they could just go home.
A MCpl is not equal to a LCpl. He is equal to a Cpl/Sgt, this depends on his quals. On one tour we MCpls stayed in the Sgts quarters some of our Sgts/WOs didn't like it, but the RSM said too bad. This is a point in reverse. As for my post over on the other one, it is the Base Commanders judgement. We had some US soldiers from Hood come up for winter warfare training. One or two of the Sgts didn't like that we had put Cpls incharge of the tent group. The OC had one point, if some guy from Texas could build a igloo, or snow cave he would accept their point. If not they could just go home.
Steel Badger said:
Interesting that the current QRs don't appear to give a definition of a Warrant Officer merely an NCM.
I accept your comments that WOs are not NCOs, but if the CWO is the only rank to receive a warrant scroll, by what definition are the current WO and MWO 'Warrant' Ranks? Do they receive a letter of appointment when they become WOs, for example?
