WAR OF 1812: UNIT RECOGNITION

[Danjanou]

We should also define a list of actual engagements to be so honoured. Do we use just a generic War of 1812, and/or Niagara? Should we start or even end with the above noted quartet of British Battle Honours listed?

I have a list of "major" engagments of the war (Bn sized or larger) on my home PC and will try and post it hopefully tonight as a start point.

As we identify specific units we can begin matching them with the battles and eventually have our list(s).

While there will be more than one specific Battle Honour available to some units, perhaps a system where a maximum number may be emblazoned on the Colours/Guidons as for other conflicts could be considered.

 

[Michael OLeary]

I have a list of "major" engagments of the war (Bn sized or larger) on my home PC and will try and post it hopefully tonight as a start point.

You'll note in my comments above that I proposed specifically not tying commemoration only to battle actions, that avoids confusion with official battle honours and ensures that units which were not in action are also remembered. 

 

[Danjanou]

Seen

So the idea of the generic "Niagara" Battle Honour or "War of 1812" then?

I have no problem recognizing units that may have served in the theatre without actually seeing action. Some units such as the Nova Scotia Fencibles saw no action but freed up other units on Garrison duty in the Atlantic so they could march to Upper or Lower Canada. When the New Brunswick Fencibles becmae the 104th Regiment of the Line, a new Fencible unit was raised in NB for Garrison duty.

Other Units both Fencibles and Militia (Sedentary and the composite Bns of flank companies) saw extensive action esepcially in the earlier battles in the Detroit, Niagara and St Lawrence theatres. Should they not recive credit for this, even if it's just another Honour not emblazoned on their Colours (or in the case of some units emblazoned again).

We may also need to look at our Naval bretheren as botth the Provincial Marine on the Great Lakes and the  Privateers on the Atlantic coast played their part.

 

[Michael OLeary]

If there was a basis for battle honours I believe it would have been dealt with at the time, in accordance with the regulations in place then.  The Canadian government should not be expected to award formal honours of any type for actions that occurred before it existed.

That is why the proposal I presented above focuses on commemoration of all participating units.  It will be up to the designated commemorating units to ensure the various actions, whether those be on the field of battle, lines of communication, rear areas or otherwise, are identified and recognized appropriately.  An undue focus on battlefield activities undermines the concept of recognizing all participation as of equal importance to the final outcome.

And the role of naval units could be examined by the same process.

 

[Michael OLeary]

From Wikipedia:

Canadian units of the War of 1812

 

[wheels031]

Danjanou ... Perhaps you overlooked a tiny point in my message. Both the Compulsory Sedentary Militia (which are the ones that fought in the War of 1812) and the Voluntary Active Militia are both 'County-based', in the same Counties. Would this be the 'legal' end-run that you would be looking for ? Or is it a mute point ?

JN Heddle

 

[Chanada]

Most people miss the ref to the MILITIA ACT OF 1855...which is the  defined start of THE CANADIAN ARMY that exists today.  No unit is older than it and none has seniority that goes before it...although some units have tried to draw links back to some of the units that pre-date it. Hence the first Battle Honour is the Fenian Raids 1870...

The reference to South African Battle Honours above is also interesting. Infact it was done quite deliberately and the provision of the "South Africa" Honour to units of the Militia was based on how many soldiers they provided to the n or 35 I believe...and it took until 1932 to sort out the allocation....


-------------------------------------

No Canadian Unit can claim ancestry from any British-Canadian Unit, as all those Units were either disbanded within a few years after the end of War of 1812 or they had reverted back to the Sedentary Militia. ... 01 Jul 1855 when the MILITIA ACT, 1855 was proclaimed into law. Subsequently, the Sedentary Militia was re-styled “Non-Service Militia” (1864); “Reserve Militia” (1869); last enrolled in 1873 and finally abolished in 1950. No Units that I am aware of, were transferred to the new ‘Active Militia’, hence no lineal descent to any Unit in the new ‘Active Militia’


JN Heddle
[/quote]

 

[exspy]

Michael,

I think your proposal has merit.  Grant a unit a 'privilege to commemorate' rather than a Battle Honour or a lineage descendency for the War of 1812.  I think you're also correct however, when you say that not everyone will welcome the proposal no matter how it is presented.  I can see a lot of regimental infighting for the awarding of the 'privileges'.  In this case I think the best solution will unfortunately be the one that angers the most people.

Cheers,
Dan.

Danjanou,

I served with John Heddle (wheels031) and know him to be not only pure of heart but an amatuer historian, just like the rest of us.  While he is new to the forum he is not new to the Canadian Army and its history.  I think you will each enjoy the other's views just as much as I've always enjoyed yours.  D.

 

[Danjanou]

Ah I need to forget even I have limits multi tasking and shouldn't be on here while covering two other missing persons stuff at workin addition to my own, I miss crap. :-[

That indead may be a possible legal end run.

However we end up doing this, Micheal's way. or any other, or combination, we need to start moving forward a bit. We seem to keep moving around the same points without resolving them. 

Perhaps put this aside for a bit ad move onto the techincal nitty gritty of whom to and what should be awarded including a a bit of cyber chinese  parliament round table "so what" style discussions on who where and when.

 

[Danjanou]

Ok rather than cut and paste a list of all battles and skirmishes like I said, I thought it would be easier to put the site up (translation I have a family crisis to deal with at home and can’t play on the internet too much tonight)

http://www.warof1812.ca/

List of Battles Skirmishes etc
http://www.warof1812.ca/1812events.htm

List of British/Canadian Regular/Fencible Regiments and battles they were present at.
http://www.warof1812.ca/charts/regts_na.htm

The wiki site is actually pretty accurate ( unless someone goes in and edits it to add the 19th Alberta Dragoons)

 

[kratz]

The idea of commemorating the War of 1812 is gaining traction if today's Speech from the Throne (pg 21) is any indication.

 

[wayne7150]

Why not have the individual military units petition the Lieutenant Governors of the provinces they are located in to carry carry a "War of 1812" honor for service in that conflict and/or a more specific "Place Name 1812 (or other appropriate year) to commemorate service or battle of a more specific nature?
The honors could be awarded during ceremonies taking place in 2012.  In my opinion, this is  the surest and least expensive way for Canadian military units to get recognition for War of 1812 service.

 

[kratz]

I have not heard/seen anything new on the topic. Does anyone have an update?

 

[1812Honour]

Ladies and Gentlemen:

Honour our 1812 Heroes is a group of concerned Canadians dedicated to:

a. Securing official recognition of the Canadian military units that fought in the War of 1812; and

b. Preserving the legacy of those units by the award of Battle Honours to units of the Canadian Forces that perpetuate them.

Our aim is to accomplish these objectives by18 June 2012, the commencement of the bicentennial commemoration of the War of 1812.

You can learn more about this cause from the attached fact sheet. Please visit our website at www.warof1812.ca/heroes  where there is an easy step means of offering your support by sending a message to the government. You can also join us on Facebook (where we also post cool maps and images) and Twitter.

Thank-you,

 

[Danjanou]

Welcome to Army.ca a search would have shown there is already a topic on this.

Threads merged


STAFF

 

[dapaterson]

Ladies and Gentlemen:

Honour our 1812 Heroes is a group of concerned Canadians dedicated to

a. Securing official recognition of the Canadian military units that fought in the War of 1812; and

Since Canada did not exist, Canadian military units by definition could not have participated.

b. Preserving the legacy of those units by the award of Battle Honours to units of the Canadian Forces that perpetuate them.

And since Canada did not exist, Canada cannot grant battle honours.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Ladies and Gentlemen:

Honour our 1812 Heroes is a group of concerned Canadians dedicated to:

a. Securing official recognition of the Canadian military units that fought in the War of 1812; and

b. Preserving the legacy of those units by the award of Battle Honours to units of the Canadian Forces that perpetuate them.

Our aim is to accomplish these objectives by18 June 2012, the commencement of the bicentennial commemoration of the War of 1812.

You can learn more about this cause from the attached fact sheet. Please visit our website at www.warof1812.ca/heroes  where there is an easy step means of offering your support by sending a message to the government. You can also join us on Facebook (where we also post cool maps and images) and Twitter.

Thank-you,

From the Data on your site, you list the 48th Highlanders.

The 48th Highlanders of Canada was founded in 1891.  They were not perpetuated from any other regiment, nor created from amalgamation.

How do you propose that a unit, created 79 years after the war of 1812, deserves battle honours from that war?  I think broad errors like this will not help you in any way to acheive your goal.

dileas

tess

 

[Pusser]

Since Canada did not exist, Canadian military units by definition could not have participated.

And since Canada did not exist, Canada cannot grant battle honours.

I disagree.  The Constitutional Act of 1791 created the provinces of Upper Canada and Lower Canada.  I don't want to get into an argument over the exact point that "Canada" started to exist, but suffice it to say that for this conversation, Canada did exist in one form or another by 1812.  Regiments in the British Army at that point were generally locally raised and so identified themselves with their recruitment bases.  Thus any regiment that was raised in Upper or Lower Canada could rightly describe itself as "Canadian."  At least two regiments in today's Canadian Army claim lineage to units that fought in the War of 1812 (the Queen's York Rangers and the Canadian Grenadier Guards).  Les Voltigeurs de Quebec were apparently named after a Lower Canadian regiment that fought as well (i.e. there is a broken link). 

I would argue that Canada could today grant battle honours to existing Canadian units that fought in the War of 1812.  Whether they should or not, is another question...

 

[The Bread Guy]

From the Data on your site, you list the 48th Highlanders.

The 48th Highlanders of Canada was founded in 1891.  They were not perpetuated from any other regiment, nor created from amalgamation.

How do you propose that a unit, created 79 years after the war of 1812, deserves battle honours from that war? 

Along the same lines, the Lake Superior Scottish Regiment is also listed.  It started as an independent company of rifles in 1885 "from scratch" - no perpetuation, no amalgamations - 70 years after the end of the War of 1812.

I think broad errors like this will not help you in any way to achieve your goal.

Zackly.

 

[vonGarvin]

I would argue that Canada could today grant battle honours to existing Canadian units that fought in the War of 1812.  Whether they should or not, is another question...

I disagree.  The entity known as "Canada" in 1812 was one of many Crown Colonies in North America.  Though the colony of Canada became the provinces of Quebec and Ontario in 1867, it should not be confused with the country of Canada that we know of today.

Those forces fighting in 1812 were not fighting for "Canada", but rather for the Empire (aka "Great Britain").  If we were to give battle honours to units for fighting in 1812, then that could go back and give some to now-American units that fought for The Crown in the Seven Years' War.

The line has to be drawn at some time, and I think 01 July, 1867 is a pretty good line.