USN Patent Leather Oxford Shoes Authorized

[Tibbson]

I would say, it is not up to you to "allow" them at your unit if they are (and they are) authorized for wear in the dress regs.

Now, I am an old fart from back in the days when the Navy would not allow us to leave the ship to cross over from the Dockyard to the base in Halifax without first getting into our service dress. However, even in those days, the Navy (as opposed to the Army's clear abhorrence of anything but spit-shined boots looking like mirrors) only cared about the shoes being black, polished and clean - no more no less -except on special parades.

And the USN pattern patent leather shoes were authorized for wear even in those days.

This said, could someone from the Army explain to me why, other than as an excuse to get in the face of recruits as a training aid, it is so critical to the operations of the CAF that the shoes you wear everyday to the office be painstakingly spit-shinned instead of just black, clean and polished (with whatever polish product you wish to use including liquids) ???

You are correct, it isn't up to me to allow them or not.  I'm not in a position to make that determination however my point was that IF I was in a position to decide I'd decide not to allow them. 

 

[Old EO Tech]

OGBD - I'm the RSM of my unit and I have a huge say in dress policy....and I would not allow them in any form of dress, less mess kit. More correctly I would advise the CO on my opinion.

Personally I think they look cheesy and cheap.

I agree completely, very cheap and chessy.  And while it is technically the CO that signs all orders in a unit....we all know were the dress orders really come from ...

 

[ModlrMike]

This said, could someone from the Army explain to me why, other than as an excuse to get in the face of recruits as a training aid, it is so critical to the operations of the CAF that the shoes you wear everyday to the office be painstakingly spit-shinned instead of just black, clean and polished (with whatever polish product you wish to use including liquids) ???

Because it fosters attention to detail, which in itself reinforces personal discipline, and personal discipline fosters group discipline. You may not believe that, but everything about dress, drill, and ceremonial has to do with group discipline. Group discipline allows us to move troops around the battlefield without having to explain every last thought.

Discipline: from the latin disciplina - meaning knowledge or instruction

I know that sounds pedantic, but you did ask.  ;D

 

[Mortar guy]

Because it fosters attention to detail, which in itself reinforces personal discipline, and personal discipline fosters group discipline. You may not believe that, but everything about dress, drill, and ceremonial has to do with group discipline. Group discipline allows us to move troops around the battlefield without having to explain every last thought.

While I don't disagree at all, I would also argue there are far more important expressions of personal and group discipline than shiny shoes. If given the choice between having an Army with impeccable shoes or a physically fit Army, I would choose the latter. I know the choice isn't that simple. But maybe nowadays we could shift our focus slightly away from the parade ground and more towards the battlefield. Also please note I am not advocating looking like bags of shite, before anyone jumps on that idea!

MG

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Because it fosters attention to detail, which in itself reinforces personal discipline, and personal discipline fosters group discipline. You may not believe that, but everything about dress, drill, and ceremonial has to do with group discipline. Group discipline allows us to move troops around the battlefield without having to explain every last thought.

Discipline: from the latin disciplina - meaning knowledge or instruction

I know that sounds pedantic, but you did ask.  ;D

Well, thank god we sailors are an undisciplined and unruly bunch of individuals

But, seriously: I agree with your view above (except for the ceremonial having to do with group discipline: at least in the Navy we use ceremonial as a means to develop in group sense of belonging and service bonding, not anything to do with discipline self or group wise), but it remains something that you develop in basic training and after you have developed the sense of self-discipline, it needs not be continually insisted upon - when not needed for parade reasons.

To give you an example: I would suspect that in AFG, while the personnel in theatre wore the combat uniform all the time (which I gather one does not press crisp nor shines the boots of), and did not exactly practice drill too often, the very nature of what they were doing fostered attention to details - their life depending on it - and that the very implication in combat operations fostered group discipline/self-discipline.

At the same time, I don't see how spending an hour every night spit shinning boots would increase attention to details or group discipline of, say, my ASW team, as I am running them through a week of ASW simulations at the combat simulator in Fleet school. If they  are not self-disciplined/group-disciplined by that point of their career, we've got a problem.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Well, thank god we sailors are an undisciplined and unruly bunch of individuals

As the recovery programs say, the first step in dealing with a problem is admitting it  >

All kidding aside, if you want a (violent) rehash of the value of time spent doing boots vs. other activities, a decent amount of strong feelings both ways can be found at a previous thread here.