USN Laser and Drone swarms....

[Kirkhill]

I’m not sure LRF/PSA or GBAD need (or should be) to be a PRes task.

Long Range Fires are managed generally higher than Bde, so while PRes could crew launchers and ammunition vehicles, the entire HQ aspect would be regular force.

GBAD is handled at Bde and Higher - again depending upon platform PRes personnel could crew vehicles/launchers and ammo supply systems - but the C&C for that would be a regular force role.

I believe you are thinking in army-centric terms. Not National Defence terms.

Unless I mistake you, you are focused on protecting the manoeuver force. My focus is on protecting cities, trade and approaches.

 

[KevinB]

I believe you are thinking in army-centric terms. Not National Defence terms.

Unless I mistake you, you are focused on protecting the manoeuver force. My focus is on protecting cities, trade and approaches.

That’s the Navy, and NORAD.
No one is going to buy billions in equipment to give to PRes units that wouldn’t be on alert status, and would not be able to master the equipment anyway.

 

[Kirkhill]

That’s the Navy, and NORAD.

Yup.

No one is going to buy billions in equipment to give to PRes units that wouldn’t be on alert status, and would not be able to master the equipment anyway.

Agreed.

So the units need to be on alert and need to master the equipment.

What portion of the staff needs to be full time, what portion can be integrated with the civilian world, what portion can be permanently locally based, what portion can be hired on a part-time, shift-work basis?

It is not obvious to me that all positions need to be uniformed positions that can be relocated according to the needs of the service. These can be permanent garrisons.

 

[Furniture]

Yup.


Agreed.

So the units need to be on alert and need to master the equipment.

What portion of the staff needs to be full time, what portion can be integrated with the civilian world, what portion can be permanently locally based, what portion can be hired on a part-time, shift-work basis?

It is not obvious to me that all positions need to be uniformed positions that can be relocated according to the needs of the service. These can be permanent garrisons.

To what end though?

North America is far away, and we have aircraft and ships on standby to scramble to defend the continent from outside attackers. Spending money to defend places that don't need to be defended is wasting money that can be used to keep threats away from the homeland.

 

[Kirkhill]

North America is NOT far away.

And the threats are not just ICBMs and Bombers.

They can be long and short range missiles, ballistic and cruise, locally launched or even locally manufactured.

Already ports, cities and airports have to manage UAVs the same way they manage birds, as a nuisance.

China is building long-range cruise missiles launched from ship containers

China is likely to build a variant of its YJ-18, the YJ-18C, long-range cruise missile that could be fired from shipping containers

www.navyrecognition.com

 

[Furniture]

North America is NOT far away.

And the threats are not just ICBMs and Bombers.

They can be long and short range missiles, ballistic and cruise, locally launched or even locally manufactured.

Already ports, cities and airports have to manage UAVs the same way they manage birds, as a nuisance.

Realistically, there is no threat to our ports or other key infrastructure that permeant AD batteries would deal with more effectively than intelligence, combined with quick reaction forces like ready duty ships, and fighters. Having actual GBAD would be pretty useful as well, but there is zero realistic need for permeant forces posted to Vancouver, Montreal, Halifax, etc...

If China parks a flotilla of container ships off Vancouver, and launches cruise missiles from them, your envisioned reserve staffed AD batteries wouldn't be able to recall fast enough to be useful.

Canada is far better served having mobile capabilities we can deploy to other places, so that the fight doesn't make it to our shores, or if it does, we can move forces rapidly from East to West or vice versa.

 

[Kirkhill]

Realistically, there is no threat to our ports or other key infrastructure that permeant AD batteries would deal with more effectively than intelligence, combined with quick reaction forces like ready duty ships, and fighters. Having actual GBAD would be pretty useful as well, but there is zero realistic need for permeant forces posted to Vancouver, Montreal, Halifax, etc...

If China parks a flotilla of container ships off Vancouver, and launches cruise missiles from them, your envisioned reserve staffed AD batteries wouldn't be able to recall fast enough to be useful.

Canada is far better served having mobile capabilities we can deploy to other places, so that the fight doesn't make it to our shores, or if it does, we can move forces rapidly from East to West or vice versa.

How about we think instead of a bit of grit in the gears? Small, understated events that make life difficult. Not events that bring the universe as we know it to an end but things that discourage investment, insurance underwriters, use of ports. Things that occur in the grey zone. Leaky transformers rather than exploding transformers. Things that can be ascribed to the criminal or even just the incompetent.

We're not looking at defending from a wave of missiles. We are looking at defending from the death by a thousand cuts. An unfortunate collision with a UAV on a runway. A homemade UAV with an IED there. Perhaps even a disgruntled first nation somewhere else getting ahold of a couple of seacans of missiles.d

I am looking at a 24/7 civvy manned system capable of dealing with the unexpected, small scale event. But a system that can be uparmed by the addition of more energetic defences that would normally come under the auspices of the DND. Defences that require professionals on shift work. Not necessarily engaged for a full year career but perhaps for a limited number of hours per week.

 

[Furniture]

How about we think instead of a bit of grit in the gears? Small, understated events that make life difficult. Not events that bring the universe as we know it to an end but things that discourage investment, insurance underwriters, use of ports. Things that occur in the grey zone. Leaky transformers rather than exploding transformers. Things that can be ascribed to the criminal or even just the incompetent.

We're not looking at defending from a wave of missiles. We are looking at defending from the death by a thousand cuts. An unfortunate collision with a UAV on a runway. A homemade UAV with an IED there. Perhaps even a disgruntled first nation somewhere else getting ahold of a couple of seacans of missiles.d

I am looking at a 24/7 civvy manned system capable of dealing with the unexpected, small scale event. But a system that can be uparmed by the addition of more energetic defences that would normally come under the auspices of the DND. Defences that require professionals on shift work. Not necessarily engaged for a full year career but perhaps for a limited number of hours per week.

That seems like a lot more expense, and a lot more potential for things to go horribly wrong, than the very remote chance any of the scenarios you propose happen.

What you're suggesting has strong potential for an IRA655, or MH17... There is a good reason most countries don't have active AD assets running in the civilian airspace as a matter of routine.

 

[Kirkhill]

The civil market overlaps with the C-RAM market. The detection systems are comparable. The effectors can be graduated.

They can be acoustic or directed thermal for dissuading people and birds, They can be directed jammers. Or directed high energy lasers. All short range that are not likely to bring down a passenger liner.

Next level up would be to add auto-cannons to the mix. Again a short range solution.

Next level up, would be local missiles

Then you would have theatre missiles controlled by NORAD but locally maintained.

Rheinmetall

Rheinmetall's drone defence toolbox helps to protect civilian and military infrastructure, and is applicable for various threat environments.

www.rheinmetall-defence.com

Counter-Unmanned Aircraft Systems (C-UAS) | Homeland Security

DHS S&T is tackling unmanned aerial systems challenges by researching ways to protect against threats and ways to make them more usable for the Homeland Security Enterprise

www.dhs.gov

10 Types of Counter-drone Technology to Detect and Stop Drones Today

Discover the pros and cons of counter-drone technology solutions. Get unbiased market insights and learn all about counter-drone systems.

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https://www.raytheonmissilesanddefense.com/what-we-do/counter-uas

Counter Drone Technology and Systems from QinetiQ

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[GR66]

How about we think instead of a bit of grit in the gears? Small, understated events that make life difficult. Not events that bring the universe as we know it to an end but things that discourage investment, insurance underwriters, use of ports. Things that occur in the grey zone. Leaky transformers rather than exploding transformers. Things that can be ascribed to the criminal or even just the incompetent.

We're not looking at defending from a wave of missiles. We are looking at defending from the death by a thousand cuts. An unfortunate collision with a UAV on a runway. A homemade UAV with an IED there. Perhaps even a disgruntled first nation somewhere else getting ahold of a couple of seacans of missiles.d

I am looking at a 24/7 civvy manned system capable of dealing with the unexpected, small scale event. But a system that can be uparmed by the addition of more energetic defences that would normally come under the auspices of the DND. Defences that require professionals on shift work. Not necessarily engaged for a full year career but perhaps for a limited number of hours per week.

The problem of having a 24/7 manned system that is sitting waiting for a highly unlikely event is that the operators will get bored waiting for an event that seems like it will never come, which inevitably will lead to complacency. When that surprise event actually does happen the response is quite likely to be ineffective.

That being said I'm fully in favour of Reserves taking on GBAD and LRP Fires roles. Personally I think these types of high-end and highly impactful capabilities are in many ways a better contribution to any coalition military effort than additional infantry.

However, to my mind it should be Reg Force Command and Control elements and a small number of Reg Force launch units that can be greatly expanded by a larger number of Reserve launch units that can be mobilized as required (including for guarding domestic facilities if there is a credible threat detected requiring such a response) rather than a 24/7 Reserve capability.

 

[KevinB]

The civil market overlaps with the C-RAM market. The detection systems are comparable. The effectors can be graduated.

No they aren’t

They can be acoustic or directed thermal for dissuading people and birds, They can be directed jammers. Or directed high energy lasers. All short range that are not likely to bring down a passenger liner.

Uhm. Any of those systems that you mention if able to take out a nefariously bend attack drone, at going to do significant damage to a civilian aircraft.

Next level up would be to add auto-cannons to the mix. Again a short range solution.

I’m actually questioning the color of sky in your world at this point.

Next level up, would be local missiles

Okay you cannot have any sort of domestic AD capability in an unmanned or low trained method.

Then you would have theatre missiles controlled by NORAD but locally maintained.

You’re skipping a lot of range and capability bands - but any active defense is going to be run in conjunction NORAD.

There is a huge difference in bird bangers for clearing avians from a flight path, and having GBAD bubbles.

Rheinmetall

Rheinmetall's drone defence toolbox helps to protect civilian and military infrastructure, and is applicable for various threat environments.

www.rheinmetall-defence.com

Counter-Unmanned Aircraft Systems (C-UAS) | Homeland Security

DHS S&T is tackling unmanned aerial systems challenges by researching ways to protect against threats and ways to make them more usable for the Homeland Security Enterprise

www.dhs.gov

10 Types of Counter-drone Technology to Detect and Stop Drones Today

Discover the pros and cons of counter-drone technology solutions. Get unbiased market insights and learn all about counter-drone systems.

www.robinradar.com

https://www.raytheonmissilesanddefense.com/what-we-do/counter-uas

Counter Drone Technology and Systems from QinetiQ

Our counter drone technology is specifically designed to detect, identify and track small/micro drones. Learn more about our counter drone systems at QinetiQ.

www.qinetiq.com

Nefarious drone issues are a LE issue until they become a National Security threat. What you are describing is a Presidential type air defense option and that’s not going to fly at all anywhere outside of distinct areas/people.

 

[Kirkhill]

Rheinmetall Defence - HEL on wheels

The Rheinmetall Live Laser Demonstration 2013 set a new standard for operational deployment of the Group’s mobile and stationary high-energy laser (HEL) effectors.

www.rheinmetall-defence.com

 

[Kirkhill]

Polish C-UAS

Crewless Bolton-Paul Defiant flying inverted.

Poland unveils HAASTA prototype for drone-on-drone warfare - Breaking Defense

The HAASTA is design to hunt low velocity flying Shahed-type drones and destroying the enemy target with an underbelly mounted 5.45mm machine gun.

breakingdefense.com