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"Unionizing" the CF (merged)

I'm sure it was mentioned earlier in this merged thread (sorry mods for starting a new topic-early morning posting.. [:-[), but there are several European militaries that are unionized to some degree.  The Dutch Navy comes to mind, they seem to be able to make it to sea as required and they were in the sandbox with us as well. 
 
The last thing I want to see is bus driver mentality driving the actions of combat forces.....dumb idea
 
jollyjacktar said:
I'm sure it was mentioned earlier in this merged thread (sorry mods for starting a new topic-early morning posting.. [:-[), but there are several European militaries that are unionized to some degree.  The Dutch Navy comes to mind, they seem to be able to make it to sea as required and they were in the sandbox with us as well.

There are a lot of misconceptions about the "unionization" of the Dutch armed forces.  They are not truly unionized in the traditional sense (i.e. the sense in which most of us think of unions).  They do have national level negotiating committees, though.  Interestingly enough, our Ship's (Fund) Committees are supposed to perform this function (as cited in the Mainguy Report), but for the most part, they deal strictly with spending the Ship's Fund.  I tried to explain what the Ship's Committee was actually supposed to be doing to an XO once - the conversation did not end well for me - suggesting he read the Mainguy Report was not a good idea.
 
There seemed to be a lot of focus in the article regarding grievances.  The grievance system is, like all systems, imperfect but it does work, at all levels.  Maybe the author needs to take a look at the grievance system as it is today and the plans on where it is heading in the near future.

If the Sqn's MCpls, Cpls and Avr's all said they think we need a union to be able to address their issues, my first though would be the crew, Sqn, Wing and fleet leadership is REALLY failing in their responsibilities (clearly laid out in the QR & O...).
 
Old ways of trying to fix the military aren't working. The Canadian Armed Forces should unionize
By Robert Smol,

Like its sister services in the defence security community, a unionized Canadian military — for obvious reasons — will not have the legal option to withdraw services and go on strike.
But we've already seen posts here about other union-dictated job actions -- a "work slowdown" for example;  I shudder to think of our bureaucracy actually getting slower!  :eek:

mariomike said:
Metro Police went on a slowdown 40-years ago over two-man cars.
Was the change an unlawful order?  Is the world still turning with one-person cars across the planet, or is this a fine example of the union protecting its turf, screwing with leadership trying to keep things running?

mariomike said:
You can't refuse or delay service to a call. But, police can stop writing tickets.
Could troops not stop doing drill?  Parade square bashing started losing its lustre after the Spanish adopted the Cuadro and Tercios formations in the early-16th Century, so it's not really the soldiers' core function -- "the Shop Steward says I don't have to."


Possibly the ONLY good reason to unionize:
we could all  then go to some Ambulance site and spam every thread with, "this one time when I was a unionized military person...."
  :nod:

Yes MM, this time the topic is  unions, so have at 'er. 
 
Unionize the CAF and contract  the steward jobs and all that jazz to the legion.  ;)
 
Journeyman said:
Was the change an unlawful order?  Is the world still turning with one-person cars across the planet, or is this a fine example of the union protecting its turf, screwing with leadership trying to keep things running?

I believe it was officer safety.

"It took me 10 years to get two men in a car in Metro. We had guys beaten up, stabbed and murdered when they were one in a car."
Sid Brown, President Metro Toronto Police Association
Star, December 20, 1976

Journeyman said:
Could troops not stop doing drill? 

Why? I was in a union but did drill during recruit training.

Journeyman said:
Yes MM, this time the topic is  unions, so have at 'er.

Thanks.  :)

"The union must respect the employer's exclusive right to manage its operations and to direct its work forces."
http://hrcouncil.ca/hr-toolkit/policies-unionized-environment.cfm




 
SeaKingTacco said:
You may have had a rough go, but I actually (generally) trust my chain of command and have been well treated by it.

I had a great go,....would do it again in a heartbeat.  The problem is most military folks, and I was like that also, think all Unions as these places where fall-downs get to stay employed even if they fuck up.  Well that is only the case where management fucks up, where they do their due diligence bad apples are gone.

With no trucks, no boots, no [insert just about anything for the men/women here], but PLENTY of money for new jobs for certain retiree's, and all kinds of new 'staff' positions springing eternal, I guess the last thing a lot of folks would want is more openness and honesty at the top.

All a Union does is keep things on the straight and narrow,....why does that scare you?
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
Imagine, some folks not getting thrown under the bus while others get protected because of [ insert reason] a family name, somebodies pet, 'right school', etc? 
It would shake the very core of NDHQ as far as I'm concerned.    I like it....

Unions were originally formed to combat unsatisfactory work conditions.  It might be a great way to solve our persistent procurement problems.  Maybe if we had a union I could get a pair of boots that don't blow out after three weeks riding my desk.

While I don't like the idea of a unionized military sometimes you need to fight fire with fire.
 
Humphrey Bogart said:
While I don't like the idea of a unionized military sometimes you need to fight fire with fire.

I agree,......I don't really like it either. 
EDIT: Which contradicts my earlier I like it but I wish it didn't have to be so......
 
Humphrey Bogart said:
Unions were originally formed to combat unsatisfactory work conditions.  It might be a great way to solve our persistent procurement problems.  Maybe if we had a union I could get a pair of boots that don't blow out after three weeks riding my desk.

While I don't like the idea of a unionized military sometimes you need to fight fire with fire.

Are those problems that you just quoted not the result of a unionized PWGSC?
 
George Wallace said:
Are those problems that you just quoted not the result of a unionized PWGSC?

No!  Do the workers make the rules?? 
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
No!  Do the workers make the rules??

Yes.  In the case of PWGSC, they do make many of the rules.

We have a case here of "Cross Border Shopping".  >:D
 
George, George, George,.........if a Union gets to "make many" of the rules then everybody in management in that shop needs to be let go and real ones brought in.
I don't know the work place so I can't say much more.
 
To add to the discussion,

"The union must respect the employer's exclusive right to manage its operations and to direct its work forces."
http://hrcouncil.ca/hr-toolkit/policies-unionized-environment.cfm

 
George Wallace said:
Are those problems that you just quoted not the result of a unionized PWGSC?

I fail to see the premise to your conclusion?

 
Pusser said:
There are a lot of misconceptions about the "unionization" of the Dutch armed forces.  They are not truly unionized in the traditional sense (i.e. the sense in which most of us think of unions).  They do have national level negotiating committees, though.  Interestingly enough, our Ship's (Fund) Committees are supposed to perform this function (as cited in the Mainguy Report), but for the most part, they deal strictly with spending the Ship's Fund.  I tried to explain what the Ship's Committee was actually supposed to be doing to an XO once - the conversation did not end well for me - suggesting he read the Mainguy Report was not a good idea.

Seen Pusser, and to a certain extent, agreed.

But one must remember that you may be dealing with two different things here. The Maingy report comes from a different era, when the RCN was it's own service. The Ship's Fund Committee, is exactly that nowadays: Something required by the current NPF system in order to spend the funds in the ship's fund.

That financial set up did not exist as such in the RCN of old. What had been required before the Maingy report, largely ignored by the powers that be, and led to the insistence of the Maingy report to use them properly were the "Ship's Welfare Committee". They were meant to be specifically safe places for what can be termed collective grievances simmering on board ships. They had the dual function of permitting the airing of those grievances so that the command team would know of their existence and extent and second, of being a forum for the command team to either explain what they would do about the grievance - or clearly explain why the command team itself was powerless to deal with the situation. Sure, in the NPF system then in place, the Welfare committee was also a good place for the crew to let the command team, which had sole discretion at that time, know how they would like to see the money from the Ship's fund spent. 

To me those two Committees are different and, nowadays, should be kept separate. However, there is nothing in today's regulation to prevent Welfare being discussed in committee as was proposed by the Maingy report. As XO, I myself made sure that both topics were dealt with and were dealt with separately. I believe that good officers, who have read and understood the Maingy report, will acknowledge that the system is still required, even nowadays where the compensation and employment of crew is much more developed system with greater protection against abuse than in the past. IMHO, you can never have too much feedback from the crew on how they see things going, so you can act accordingly (even if so acting is merely explaining why something can't be helped). 
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
And this is Union-related how??

NONE.  Go back to origin of this: 
George Wallace said:
Are those problems that you just quoted not the result of a unionized PWGSC?

My attempt at levity failed in reply to the CAF having problems with

Humphrey Bogart said:
.......  It might be a great way to solve our persistent procurement problems.  Maybe if we had a union I could get a pair of boots that don't blow out after three weeks riding my desk.

and the fact that Public Works has their fingers into everything.......that unionizing the CAF may not have any affect, as another 'unionized' organization is involved; an organization that really doesn't care one way or the other about the CAF, only their stated responsibilities/MOU, nothing else.  Union agreements keep organizations like Public Works and all Government union members bound to work only within their defined agreements, not to stray outside of those agreements; if it isn't written in your job description, you are not to do it.  In effect, this can be shown to be one flaw with CAF procurement, the Public Sector side of the procedure. 

Other than being unionized, the Union usually has nothing to do with what Public Works does, only the conditions that they work under in their job descriptions.  Sorry if I am all over the map there.

I just can't see the military being unionized as being beneficial to anyone; least of all, the nation.
 
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