U.S. Annexing Canada (split fm Liberal Minority thread)

[GR66]

Just going to throw this out there as a hypothetical for the sake of discussion.

Trump has two main issues with Canada which lead to his "suggestion" that Canada become the 51st State...trade deficits and security issues.

What if we upped the ante and proposed a Customs Union with the United States combined with a joint external border policy...basically free flow of goods between Canada and the US with a common security perimeter around the two countries. Border resources could be re-deployed to focus on overseas points of entry to prevent illegal goods/bad actors from getting into Canada/US in the first place.

Information archivée dans le Web | Information Archived on the Web

publications.gc.ca

After September 11: a Canada-U.S. customs union

Canada should take advantage of increased U.S. interest in a common North American security perimeter by proposing a customs union.

policyoptions.irpp.org

https://www.uvic.ca/research/centres/globalstudies/assets/docs/publications/AMalignConceptofSovereigntyCanadaUSCustomsUnion.pdf

We wouldn't have to go as far as the EU in integration and a common currency, but there would be definite economic benefits to harmonization of product standards, etc. As a common North American market we'd have the weight of the US economy behind us in trade negotiations with other countries.

On the military side we could deepen security cooperation by transitioning NORAD from the "North American Aerospace Defence Command" to a more comprehensive "North American Defence Command" with expanded RCN and CA coordination with the USN and US Army as well as active participation in Ballistic Missile Defence.

These two actions would resolve the concerns raised by PE Trump regarding security as well as cement our trade relations with the US without the need to become the 51st State.

As an additional twist, from what I've read Greenland is interested in voting for sovereignty from Denmark but the main sticking point is they can't afford economically to give up the subsidies from the Danish Government. What if instead of being purchased by the US, Greenland instead became the 4th Canadian territory? They are much closer geographically to Canada than Denmark and the population is almost 90% mixed Inuit ethnically so they likely have much more in common culturally with Canadian Arctic communities than with the typical Dane.

As a Canadian Territory Greenland would be part of the Canada/US Customs Union so would have barrier free trade with both countries which would likely lead to economic investment in their natural resource industries. PE Trump could see this as a win since he (the US) would reap the benefits of economic access to Greenland's resources at the same time as not having to administer the territory.

 

[suffolkowner]

Just going to throw this out there as a hypothetical for the sake of discussion.

Trump has two main issues with Canada which lead to his "suggestion" that Canada become the 51st State...trade deficits and security issues.

What if we upped the ante and proposed a Customs Union with the United States combined with a joint external border policy...basically free flow of goods between Canada and the US with a common security perimeter around the two countries. Border resources could be re-deployed to focus on overseas points of entry to prevent illegal goods/bad actors from getting into Canada/US in the first place.

Information archivée dans le Web | Information Archived on the Web

publications.gc.ca

After September 11: a Canada-U.S. customs union

Canada should take advantage of increased U.S. interest in a common North American security perimeter by proposing a customs union.

policyoptions.irpp.org

https://www.uvic.ca/research/centres/globalstudies/assets/docs/publications/AMalignConceptofSovereigntyCanadaUSCustomsUnion.pdf

We wouldn't have to go as far as the EU in integration and a common currency, but there would be definite economic benefits to harmonization of product standards, etc. As a common North American market we'd have the weight of the US economy behind us in trade negotiations with other countries.

On the military side we could deepen security cooperation by transitioning NORAD from the "North American Aerospace Defence Command" to a more comprehensive "North American Defence Command" with expanded RCN and CA coordination with the USN and US Army as well as active participation in Ballistic Missile Defence.

These two actions would resolve the concerns raised by PE Trump regarding security as well as cement our trade relations with the US without the need to become the 51st State.

As an additional twist, from what I've read Greenland is interested in voting for sovereignty from Denmark but the main sticking point is they can't afford economically to give up the subsidies from the Danish Government. What if instead of being purchased by the US, Greenland instead became the 4th Canadian territory? They are much closer geographically to Canada than Denmark and the population is almost 90% mixed Inuit ethnically so they likely have much more in common culturally with Canadian Arctic communities than with the typical Dane.

As a Canadian Territory Greenland would be part of the Canada/US Customs Union so would have barrier free trade with both countries which would likely lead to economic investment in their natural resource industries. PE Trump could see this as a win since he (the US) would reap the benefits of economic access to Greenland's resources at the same time as not having to administer the territory.

seems like that would increase the trade imbalance

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

There are US Customs set up by agreement in some Canadian airports. Just negotiating the deals to do that is usually complicated by the fact that the US wants its agents in Canada to be armed, to consider the location where they do the pre-clearance to be considered "US" territory for the purpose of arresting people and bringing the to the US without extradition process.

Simply put, the US border services do not trust Canadian to apply the rules (In my opinion, US border services do not trust anyone for anything - period - but I digress) and therefore, for such union the US would necessarily require US officers to check entry at all Canadian Port of entry left and have the power to arrest people and bring them to US justice without warrant or process in Canada or to not being held to any Canadian standard in the use of force (in fact to only answer to US authorities for such use of force on Canadian soil). IMHO, that would be ceding too much sovereignty to ever happen.

Moreover, if you think gangs and US guns are coming in the country freely now, watch what would happen then. In my view, that last point should have been Trudeau's retort to Trump's tariff: "You want us to use our border services to do your job of preventing illegal aliens and fentanyl to enter your country! We'll do it if you help us stop the entry in Canada of illegal guns and stop your law enforcement officers from actually instructing refugee claimants who should make their claim in the US on how to enter Canada illegally."

 

[Baz]

On the military side we could deepen security cooperation by transitioning NORAD from the "North American Aerospace Defence Command" to a more comprehensive "North American Defence Command" with expanded RCN and CA coordination with the USN and US Army as well as active participation in Ballistic Missile Defence.

Looks like we need to bring back the Bi-National Planning Group. It was set up at Colorado Springs after 9/11 to help redefine the defence relationship between the US and Canada, producing two main reports. The largest outcome was BORAD gaining a Maritime Warning role.

I was part of it for a bit, doing Maritime Warning and Intelligence Sharing planning, as well as being a back fill CanadaCom liaison watch officer for exercises and ops.

My name’s even in the Final report

 

[The Bread Guy]

... Trump has two main issues with Canada which lead to his "suggestion" that Canada become the 51st State...trade deficits and security issues ...

He's also mentioned a lot about drug trafficking from Canada as well - would this be covered/included under "security"?

 

[dimsum]

Another reason why the heat from US on Canadian borders and security?

According to this investigative journalist Canada is the major fentanyl producer by cartels for supplies going into the US. At about the 1:19.00 mark.

The CBP has a great site where you can see how much they seize, filtered by drug type and region.

Drug Seizure Statistics

Securing America's Borders

www.cbp.gov

From that site, the northern (Canadian) border has far less than the southwest (Mexican) border.

 

[lenaitch]

We'll do it if you help us stop the entry in Canada of illegal guns

But, to them, guns are a simply a product, the use of which is protected by their Constitution. They're only illegal because of our namby-pamby leftist laws (/s). He could make it a line item in the re-opened CUSMA treaty.

 

[OldSolduer]

We as a nation are ungovernable. Quebec more so. Tabernac.....

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Just going to throw this out there as a hypothetical for the sake of discussion.

Trump has two main issues with Canada which lead to his "suggestion" that Canada become the 51st State...trade deficits and security issues.

What if we upped the ante and proposed a Customs Union with the United States combined with a joint external border policy...basically free flow of goods between Canada and the US with a common security perimeter around the two countries. Border resources could be re-deployed to focus on overseas points of entry to prevent illegal goods/bad actors from getting into Canada/US in the first place.

Information archivée dans le Web | Information Archived on the Web

publications.gc.ca

After September 11: a Canada-U.S. customs union

Canada should take advantage of increased U.S. interest in a common North American security perimeter by proposing a customs union.

policyoptions.irpp.org

https://www.uvic.ca/research/centres/globalstudies/assets/docs/publications/AMalignConceptofSovereigntyCanadaUSCustomsUnion.pdf

We wouldn't have to go as far as the EU in integration and a common currency, but there would be definite economic benefits to harmonization of product standards, etc. As a common North American market we'd have the weight of the US economy behind us in trade negotiations with other countries.

On the military side we could deepen security cooperation by transitioning NORAD from the "North American Aerospace Defence Command" to a more comprehensive "North American Defence Command" with expanded RCN and CA coordination with the USN and US Army as well as active participation in Ballistic Missile Defence.

These two actions would resolve the concerns raised by PE Trump regarding security as well as cement our trade relations with the US without the need to become the 51st State.

As an additional twist, from what I've read Greenland is interested in voting for sovereignty from Denmark but the main sticking point is they can't afford economically to give up the subsidies from the Danish Government. What if instead of being purchased by the US, Greenland instead became the 4th Canadian territory? They are much closer geographically to Canada than Denmark and the population is almost 90% mixed Inuit ethnically so they likely have much more in common culturally with Canadian Arctic communities than with the typical Dane.

As a Canadian Territory Greenland would be part of the Canada/US Customs Union so would have barrier free trade with both countries which would likely lead to economic investment in their natural resource industries. PE Trump could see this as a win since he (the US) would reap the benefits of economic access to Greenland's resources at the same time as not having to administer the territory.

This to me is highly desirable and what is going to happen eventually so we may as well get a head start.

 

[McG]

A Canada-US union is not inevitable any more than a global government is inevitable. Certainly, it is not desirable (let alone highly desirable) to pursue such an endeavour while a despotic president is trying to force it through threat and duress.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Musk's information operations campaign picked up by the Guardian...

Canada’s election is about to have an Elon Musk problem with Trudeau’s exit

The world’s richest man looks to move Canada to the right as the beleaguered prime minister prepares to depart

www.theguardian.com

 

[lenaitch]

Musk's information operations campaign picked up by the Guardian...

Canada’s election is about to have an Elon Musk problem with Trudeau’s exit

The world’s richest man looks to move Canada to the right as the beleaguered prime minister prepares to depart

www.theguardian.com

He seems to have developed a rather fluid view of 'hate speech':

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/the-penthouse-marquee-hate-speech-allegation-1.7428625

 

[dimsum]

He seems to have developed a rather fluid view of 'hate speech':

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/the-penthouse-marquee-hate-speech-allegation-1.7428625

Plus his de-platforming of various MAGA folks who called him out - which, while funny watching that cat-fight, might come back to bite them.

Anyway, CBC’s “About That” had a pretty good primer on “trade deficit” vs “subsidy”, and especially about the oil sector.

Somewhat related, on a TED Talk with Ian Bremmer, one line that jumped out was that “the US isn’t becoming isolationist - it’s becoming transactional.”

 

[brihard]

Anyway, CBC’s “About That” had a pretty good primer on “trade deficit” vs “subsidy”, and especially about the oil sector.

Somewhat related, on a TED Talk with Ian Bremmer, one line that jumped out was that “the US isn’t becoming isolationist - it’s becoming transactional.”

Our annual oil exports to the U.S. are roughly double our trade deficit. That’s the long and the short of it. The trade deficit simply means the U.S. doesn’t have enough of a competitive advantage in goods and services we want to buy to make up for that. Like them, we’re highly consumerist and import a ton of consumer goods from lower cost countries. The US has a trade deficit with us because they worked to reduceor eliminate their trade deficits with Persian gulf and other OPEC oil states.

Trump’s upset about a trade deficit that can be wholly explained twice over by oil exports from Alberta, but he also wants to revive the Keystone XL pipeline. He wants to punish Canada for the very economic success that he’s actively trying to reinforce. Something about sucking and blowing at the same time…

 

[Brad Sallows]

John Cochrane on tariffs and trade deficits.

On the stupidity of measuring "bilateral trade deficits":

"China might use the dollars to buy, say, wheat from Australia, so it looks like China sells us more than we sell them. But then Australia must use the dollars here in America. Dollars always come home to roost. So how much more one country sells us than we sell them — the “bilateral trade deficit” — really is pretty meaningless."

And the next paragraph is about what the net trade deficit funds:

"The rest of the world sells us more than we sell them. But the rest of the world uses every cent of the extra dollars it gets from that trade to invest in the U.S. and to buy our government bonds. If we sell the whole world exactly as much as they sell us every year — in other words, if there were no overall U.S. trade deficit — we’re the ones who would have to start saving huge much larger amounts of our incomes in order to invest in U.S. companies, give mortgages to people to buy houses, and to fund the governments’ $1 trillion deficits."

 

[JLB50]

A Canada-US union is not inevitable any more than a global government is inevitable. Certainly, it is not desirable (let alone highly desirable) to pursue such an endeavour while a despotic president is trying to force it through threat and duress.

I was born in the U.S. and spent the first few decades of my life living there and much prefer what we have in this imperfect country of ours. Economically, politically and socially Canada has problems…and probably always will. But IMHO the U.S. is far worse on all counts. While the Americans may carry a significantly larger economic and military clout, it doesn’t make them better.

I think it was H.L. Mencken who said something to the effect that “No promoter ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.” If their society were so ideal, people like Trump wouldn't be saying how broken everything is and that only he can fix it. And then after he and his people are voted out of office, we hear the same from the other side. It’s a game politicians play with peoples’ heads and it happens all over the world in free societies. Once they get in office they make good on some of their promises to cover up all the vast incompetence and corruption that’s taking place behind the scenes. It certainly happens here. I don’t know…maybe it’s the Hollywood influence that has presented America as the centre of the world and the place to be, even if wildfires are inching their way towards movie land.

Anyway, I don’t buy it. So include me as one of those Canadians who NEVER want to join the U.S.

 

[Remius]

I was born in the U.S. and spent the first few decades of my life living there and much prefer what we have in this imperfect country of ours. Economically, politically and socially Canada has problems…and probably always will. But IMHO the U.S. is far worse on all counts. While the Americans may carry a significantly larger economic and military clout, it doesn’t make them better.

I think it was H.L. Mencken who said something to the effect that “No promoter ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.” If their society were so ideal, people like Trump wouldn't be saying how broken everything is and that only he can fix it. And then after he and his people are voted out of office, we hear the same from the other side. It’s a game politicians play with peoples’ heads and it happens all over the world in free societies. Once they get in office they make good on some of their promises to cover up all the vast incompetence and corruption that’s taking place behind the scenes. It certainly happens here. I don’t know…maybe it’s the Hollywood influence that has presented America as the centre of the world and the place to be, even if wildfires are inching their way towards movie land.

Anyway, I don’t buy it. So include me as one of those Canadians who NEVER want to join the U.S.

All Trump is going to achieve is more anti Americanism in Canada, not sure that is what he wanted.

 

[dimsum]

All Trump is going to achieve is more anti Americanism in Canada, not sure that is what he wanted.

I highly doubt he cares about what the other party (nation, state, whatever) thinks.

He looks up to “strongmen” because they also don’t care what the other party thinks.

So I’m not as optimistic as some who think it’s a negotiation tactic. His history would suggest that he doesn’t negotiate - he either gets what he wants, or he spouts nonsense for decades about how he was cheated or whatever.

 

[Kilted]

This about sums it up.

 

[JLB50]

As Trump threatens Canada, ‘there’s something dangerous brewing’: analyst - National | Globalnews.ca

David Frum, a staff writer at The Atlantic, says the fact the incoming U.S. president keeps repeating the idea of taking over Canada means he's eying some kind of aggression.

globalnews.ca

David Frum has an interesting opinion of Trump.