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U.S. 2012 Election

On Nov 6 Who Will Win President Obama or Mitt Romney ?

  • President Obama

    Votes: 39 61.9%
  • Mitt Romney

    Votes: 24 38.1%

  • Total voters
    63
  • Poll closed .
More speculation, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the National Post, about how Obama might turn things around and win a second term:

Democratic fantasy ticket: Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton

Tom Blackwell

Last Updated: Dec 31, 2011

As Abe Lincoln geared up for his re-election campaign in 1864, the Republican unceremoniously jettisoned his first-term vice-president and picked Andrew Johnson, a southerner from the rival Democratic Party, as his surprising running mate.

Lincoln hoped to broaden the administration’s appeal after four years of the catastrophic Civil War, and the gambit seemed to work. The bipartisan team swept into office, before a pistol-packing theatre actor ended it all for the president a few months later.

With Barack Obama likely facing a daunting battle in next year’s race, some Democrats have suggested an unusual reprise of the Lincoln manoeuvre: Why not have Joe Biden, the current Vice-President, swap jobs with Hillary Clinton, the Secretary of State?

An Obama-Clinton ticket, as the theory goes, would revive a Democratic base disillusioned by the President’s compromises on various issues, and inject some verve into a campaign that lacks the electricity of that first drive for the White House.

“Moreover, the economy won’t be in superb shape in the months leading up to election day,” Robert Reich, labour secretary in the Bill Clinton administration, said in a recent blog that gave new life to the idea.

“Clinton would help deflect attention from the bad economy and put it on foreign policy, where she and Obama have shined.”

A recent Gallup poll found the President and the Secretary of State were the most admired people in the United States, though the survey tends to favour familiar names. At the same time, an anonymous group has sponsored automated “robo-calls” to voters in several states suggesting Ms. Clinton actually replace Mr. Obama as the Democrats’ presidential candidate.

No one takes that idea seriously, but even the notion of subbing out Mr. Biden as vice-president seems to have an element of fantasy about it.

Despite her long-standing ambitions for the top job and the many supporters who advocated making her the 2008 vice-presidential candidate, Ms. Clinton has said repeatedly she will leave her post at the end of Mr. Obama’s first term. The President has already indicated officially that Mr. Biden would be his running mate.

A White House official said Friday that questions about election strategy have to be handled by the Democratic National Committee; no spokesman could be reached there.

Outside analysts suggested the odds are slim a vice-presidential trade is in the offing, but they would not rule out the possibility entirely, especially if the polls look grim for Mr. Obama a few months from now.

Ms. Clinton has always wanted to be president, and Mr. Biden was in the past very much interested in State, Christopher Hull, who teaches politics at Georgetown University in Washington, noted about the “dynamic-duo” speculation.

“In the States, we have a saying, ‘If Democrats don’t win, they don’t eat.’ The Obamans will do what it takes to win, and if that includes the Biden-Clinton shuffle, they’ll do it,” he said.

“That said, given the level of second-guessing and back-biting it may cause, swapping Clinton and Biden may do more harm than good — for Obama, at least.”

Sparking excitement around presidential re-election campaigns is always a challenge; putting the current Secretary of State on the ticket would certainly shake things up, said Cary Covington, a political scientist at the University of Iowa.

“Running for the first term is like poetry, running for the second term is like prose — it just doesn’t instill enthusiasm in people,” he said.

“Hillary Clinton as VP — the first woman to hold the office if she were to win — opens all sorts of possibilities. It would create a big stir, it would be a way of stealing some thunder from the Republicans.”

The idea would work only if both individuals were on side, as Mr. Obama could not afford to alienate Mr. Biden with a forced demotion, Prof. Covington said.

Such vice-presidential switches are certainly rare, but Lincoln was not alone in trying it.

Franklin Roosevelt fired his VP twice. The first time he dumped John Nance Garner, a conservative with whom he had clashed during their first two terms, and ushered in the more left-leaning Henry Wallace. He was replaced four years later by Harry Truman, who became president on Roosevelt’s death a few months after the election, held before the U.S. Constitution restricted presidents to two consecutive terms.

Mr. Reich admitted his prediction was based on “absolutely no inside information,” citing instead a feeling Mr. Obama needs to “stir the passions and enthusiasms” of Democratic voters after a series of cave-ins to Republicans in Congress.

Such a move might give the campaign a short-term bump, much as happened when John McCain took on Sarah Palin as his Republican running mate in the 2008 election, Prof. Covington said.

In the long run, though, it is unlikely a Great Trade would have much impact in an election that is likely to be a referendum on Mr. Obama’s economic performance, he said.

In fact, the popularity of vice-presidential candidates rarely figures much in U.S. election results, the political scientist added, pointing to the fact George H.W. Bush was elected in 1988 despite the bumbling image of his running mate, Dan Quayle.

“The voters in the United States … are going to be voting their pocketbooks,” he said. “What’s happening with unemployment, what’s happening with the median income — those are things that studies have shown time and time again will drive this kind of election.”

In addition, sliding Mr. Biden out of the vice-president’s office would raise an awkward question: Was the President wrong to have given him the nod in 2008?

Still, the hopes of some Democrats for a White House job swap seem to run deep.

“Obama-Clinton in 2012,” Mr. Reich states simply in wrapping up his blog post.

“It’s a natural.”


I think a lot depends upon whether or not the GOP can come to its senses and select a candidate who can beat Obama - and right now Mitt Romney looks like the only one in the field who could do that. If it's a candidate of the extreme right (almost anyone except Ron Paul* or Mitt Romney) then my guess is that Obama doesn't need much help.

_____
* Paul is the closest thing we have to a real Libertarian, so he defies the right/left categorization.
 
Infanteer said:
.... 13 Divisions (10 Army, 3 Marine) is all the land power that it gets out of 400 billion dollars.  There needs to be some hard choices on what is more important - frontline units or those 1,000 extra nuclear warheads.

Actually, there are only eight active Army divisions. Just nickpicking  ;D

 
SeaKingTacco said:
Frankly, the US probably needs a lot less Army and Marine Divisions, fewer nuclear weapons, with a Navy and Air Force about the same size as today, if all that it is concerned about is protecting itself and it's interests.

Precisely. I'm not going to speculate on where exactly the cuts come from or what the optimal manning that would meet the their needs - but I'd suspect that you could probably cut the entire force by 1/3 - maybe even 1/2 and they'd still be able to look after all of their interests without much trouble.

There has to be a process to do the cuts, though, because you have to account for the economic impact of phasing so much capability (and manning) out, and the FRP here seems to have illustrated some of the potential pitfalls with things like leadership gaps.

If American politicians wants to get serious about putting their fiscal house in order, though, they simply must start working on a plan to accomplish that.
 
I think (hope) the debate in the USA - which must occur during the 2012 election campaign - will focus on how to cut: reduce combat power or (harder) attack the entrenched, wasteful, often corrupt procurement and basing issues.

Much as I am a HUGE fan of Pentagon R&D (and what it has done for the whole world) I am convinced that one could chop the procurement process, much the way one chops the head off a poisonous snake, and save tens of billions year after year after year. Some (too many) projects are funded because the defence industrial base (Ike's "military industrial complex") is on welfare, and it's addicted to its welfare - just like some people are to theirs.
 
Retired AF Guy said:
Actually, there are only eight active Army divisions. Just nickpicking  ;D

10.  1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 25th Infantry.  1st Armored.  1st Cavalry.  82nd Airborne.  101st Air Assault.  10th Mountain.

Do a simple wiki check before you start nitpicking.
 
SeaKingTacco said:
Frankly, the US probably needs a lot less Army and Marine Divisions, fewer nuclear weapons, with a Navy and Air Force about the same size as today, if all that it is concerned about is protecting itself and it's interests.

Probably.  I've seen proposals to turn most, if not all, the U.S. Army into a Reserve formation and just keep the U.S. Marine Corps active with the Gators/Carriers and the Air Force.

A robust Navy and Marine Corps with support from the Air Force certainly would achieve Edward Campbell's two objectives (which I concur with) for "global security".
 
Agreed that the US spends on bases and military gear - and much of it is wasteful.  Also agreed that much of it may be unnecessary and effectively "welfare".

But......

It is possible to argue that for 4% of their GDP they:

Keep people off their streets;
Give them jobs in which they take pride;
Have something to show for the expenditure;
and Have a set of capabilities unmatched in the world.

If that 4% of GDP were cut to 2% what would the impact on the US and Global Economies be?
What would the unemployment rate look like?
How much of the "Peace Dividend" would end up going to fund welfare with nothing to show for the effort?

And that says nothing about the global economy impacts from having a less secure trading environment.

Canada can afford to increase its defence spending if it is invested in the internal economy (Australian subs, Australian Hawkei LTVs, Australian Bushmasters, Australian Catamarans.........Canadian LAVs, Canadian AOPS, Canadian CSCs) and not all spent offshore.  Somethings we can't do (Build F35 competitors for example).  But other things are well within our grasp.

I note that the Aussies aren't content with just satisfying their domestic defence requirements.  They aim to produce products that the rest of the world wants to buy.  Kind of like our (Swiss Designed) LAVs.
 
The US does not spend more than "half" of its budget on defence, except perhaps by stretching the definition to include all the costs associated with security and past obligations necessitated by German, Japanese, and Russian adventurism.

Looking at the spending breakdown I'd be surprised if they could trim much more than $250B by heavily gutting personnel, operations, and procurement.  It would help, but let's not be fools by pretending a $250B cut is going to solve their spending problems.  The glaring fact is that their spending obligations exceed their ability to pay in anything except a highly devalued US dollar.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
I think (hope) the debate in the USA - which must occur during the 2012 election campaign - will focus on how to cut: reduce combat power or (harder) attack the entrenched, wasteful, often corrupt procurement and basing issues.

Much as I am a HUGE fan of Pentagon R&D (and what it has done for the whole world) I am convinced that one could chop the procurement process, much the way one chops the head off a poisonous snake, and save tens of billions year after year after year. Some (too many) projects are funded because the defence industrial base (Ike's "military industrial complex") is on welfare, and it's addicted to its welfare - just like some people are to theirs.

The US procurement policy is indeed part of the problem and there's lots of room for savings. I remember reading a couple of years or so ago about new equipment that no one wanted being essentially foisted upon the US military. I think it was a naval ship that the focus of the article was - it was something that was viewed as the answer to a question no one asked. I think it was eventually cancelled. I wish I could remember where I saw it.
 
Brad Sallows said:
The US does not spend more than "half" of its budget on defence, except perhaps by stretching the definition to include all the costs associated with security and past obligations necessitated by German, Japanese, and Russian adventurism.

Whoops - you're right - it's about a quarter to a third looks like- the "half" thing I was thinking of referred to tax revenues. Still a massive chunk of the budget, and one which must be addressed.
 
Redeye said:
I think it was a naval ship that the focus of the article was - it was something that was viewed as the answer to a question no one asked. I think it was eventually cancelled. I wish I could remember where I saw it.

Probably the Zumwalt Class.
 
Infanteer said:
10.  1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 25th Infantry.  1st Armored.  1st Cavalry.  82nd Airborne.  101st Air Assault.  10th Mountain.

Do a simple wiki check before you start nitpicking.

Active Divisions

1st Armored Division, Fort Bliss, Texas
1st Cavalry Division, Fort Hood, Texas
1st Infantry Division, Fort Riley, Kansas
3rd Infantry Division, Fort Stewart, Georgia
10th Mountain Division, Fort Drum, New York
25th Infantry Division, Schofield Barracks, Hawaii
82nd Airborne Division, Fort Bragg, North Carolina
101st Airborne Division, Fort Campbell, Kentucky

Eight. U.S. Army webpage.
 
Old Sweat said:
I think you are referring to US based divisions. The 2nd Infantry Division is in Korea and there is still a US Army presence in Germany.

Hmmm ... you're right. The 2 ID is in Korea, As for Europe, there is still a U.S. Army presence in Europe, but according to this webpage, there is no divisional unit. The last division in Europe was the 1st ID (The "Big Red One") and that was drawn back to the U.S. in 2006. Having said that, there still several units* in Europe under V Corps but not as a divisional unit. So thats nine divisions. After some more research their is also the 4 ID in Fort Carson, Co..  That's ten. Interesting why the webpage I linked doesn't reflect that.

My apologies.

* V Corps
2nd Stryker Cavalry Regiment (organized as a Stryker Brigade Combat Team)
170th Infantry Brigade
172nd Infantry Brigade
173rd Airborne Brigade Combat Team
12th Combat Aviation Brigade
 
National defense is one of the reasons that we have governments (one of the the roles of government is to protect citizens from internal and external threats, while the Whestphalian system evolved because nation states are far superior in raising and organizing resources for military purposes than any of the competitors).

Now there can be (and should be) a debate as to how far the United States needs to go when protecting its citizens, and a second debate as to how to untangle the procurement process to make it faster and cheaper, but as Brad pointed out (as well as countless other commentators in media, the Internet and across the globe) the real area that needs reforming are the "entitlement" programs of Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid; along with welfare reform and business subsidies as secondary targets.

A very small step has been taken in eliminating $6 billion/year in ethanol subsidies, which suggests that doing very targeted cuts and eliminating individual programs one at a time may be the means to getting some traction on spending cuts. A "grand program" like the super committee failed to make even a trivial trillion dollar spending cut over a decade, so I can see the battle going to guerrilla warfare in committees for small cuts here and there.  The downline elections re going to be the means to get enough people in place to do this.
 
The problem is that that by and large people want programs like Social Security and Medicare, and they see programs like Medicaid as essential, and ultimately, you can either have everyone pay into healthcare for the less fortunate via taxation to fund a social program, or you can have everyone pay into healthcare for the less fortunate in the form of massively inflated healthcare costs that pass on the costs to those who use the system. Those costs don't magically disappear unless you decide to let the poor die in the streets without access to healthcare. Some Americans still seem to wonder why an Aspirin costs $10 at a hospital. The reason all the costs there are so inflated is that's how the costs of treating those unable to pay are covered. There's also the insane amount of administrative bloat that exists in the US system to compound that problem - but that's a whole separate complex issue.

My submission is that the issue the Americans have is not entitlement programs - but that they want the programs but don't want to pay for them. Granted there's definitely room in the way they do business to find major savings. You mentioned ethanol subsidies, that's one part of a complex, ridiculous series of problems in American agriculture that I'm starting to study with great interest. Again, that is a whole other complex kettle of fish.

I'm looking forward to seeing what the focus of debate in the 2012 campaigns will be - again, not so much at the Presidential level since I think that's all but a foregone conclusion, without credible opposition President Obama shouldn't have much trouble winning a second term - but for the Congress. The economy will likely be the focus, and the plans to fix it will have to come to the forefront. The Republicans will likely offer their usual position of tax cuts and deregulation, and the Democrats will again argue that they didn't work before, and there's no reason to expect they will now, especially when coupled with the current fiscal mess. The definition of insansity is what, again?

I'd love to see the Democrats put together a good solid plan that involves addressing the massive infrastructure problem the United States has, failing bridges and the like, as an effective stimulus plan. The money needs to be spent anyhow, at some point soon, and frankly, I can't see it being too hard for people in jurisdictions where there's crumbling infrastructure to believe that fixing them will bring much needed jobs to their communities. It'll be most interesting in districts whose Representatives have failed so spectacularly. Mostly I'm going to have to watch John Boehner's district, and see who's running against him. It's a solidly red area, but Boehner's "leadership" has been so ineffective that I wonder if it'll become a swing district. That are interests me as well because I have a friend running for office there as well (a municipal office, not Congress) and so I'm getting all sorts of updates on how the Democrats are organizing themselves there.

It'll be an interesting campaign though, I hope - lots to talk about - but I worry that it'll go the normal way. Attack ads and debates about things that don't matter at all instead of real issues.

Thucydides said:
National defense is one of the reasons that we have governments (one of the the roles of government is to protect citizens from internal and external threats, while the Whestphalian system evolved because nation states are far superior in raising and organizing resources for military purposes than any of the competitors).

Now there can be (and should be) a debate as to how far the United States needs to go when protecting its citizens, and a second debate as to how to untangle the procurement process to make it faster and cheaper, but as Brad pointed out (as well as countless other commentators in media, the Internet and across the globe) the real area that needs reforming are the "entitlement" programs of Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid; along with welfare reform and business subsidies as secondary targets.

A very small step has been taken in eliminating $6 billion/year in ethanol subsidies, which suggests that doing very targeted cuts and eliminating individual programs one at a time may be the means to getting some traction on spending cuts. A "grand program" like the super committee failed to make even a trivial trillion dollar spending cut over a decade, so I can see the battle going to guerrilla warfare in committees for small cuts here and there.  The downline elections re going to be the means to get enough people in place to do this.
 
Redeye:
It'll be an interesting campaign though, I hope - lots to talk about - but I worry that it'll go the normal way. Attack ads and debates about things that don't matter at all instead of real issues.

Attack Ads. Attack Ads. You ain't seen nothing yet. Obama and is aiming for one billion dollars for his personal re-election campaign. One billion dollars. What do you think he is going to spend it on?

Attack Ads will set new standards of viciousness.

It would be interesting to really really dig deep to see the actual source of some of these contributions.
 
Rifleman62 said:
Redeye:
Attack Ads. Attack Ads. You ain't seen nothing yet. Obama and is aiming for one billion dollars for his personal re-election campaign. One billion dollars. What do you think he is going to spend it on?

Attack Ads will set new standards of viciousness.

He can spent it on attacking - or he can spend it on presenting ideas - I hope for the latter, but American politics doesn't lend well to expecting that.

Rifleman62 said:
It would be interesting to really really dig deep to see the actual source of some of these contributions.

You don't have to since it's all public information. http://www.fec.gov/disclosurep/pnational.do

I'd imagine most of it comes from small donations from average Americans. They have a pretty good fund raising machine, I think they send emails out every few days. My wife, being an American citizen, gets them all the time. I think she plans to get more involved with Democrats Abroad this year because I'll be away and it'll give her a bit broader social network.
 
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