Transition to Municipal Police Force

[daftandbarmy]

BC has a history of confusing the police

B.C. had a provincial police force once before. Why did it vanish?
​

B.C. Provincial Police was absorbed by the RCMP in 1950, after 92 years​

Standing before the B.C. Legislature on March 27, 1950, then-attorney general Gordon Wismer launched a passionate argument for replacing the provincial police force with the RCMP.

Bringing in the Mounties would make policing more efficient, boost national security and save the provincial government more than $1 million, he said. Police officers themselves, he insisted, didn't have reason to worry – they would end up with better training, better pay and better pensions with the RCMP.

One newspaper columnist said it was Wismer's "finest, most determined" defence of a government plan to date. But many, including police officers themselves, were still bewildered when the B.C. Provincial Police was abruptly shut down that August.

More than 70 years later, the issue of who is best suited to police B.C. reached the legislature again on Thursday. A committee of MLAs had agreed, unanimous across party lines, that the province should ditch the RCMP and re-establish a provincial police force.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-provincial-police-force-1958-to-1950-1.6436025

 

[lenaitch]

BC has a history of confusing the police

B.C. had a provincial police force once before. Why did it vanish?​

​

B.C. Provincial Police was absorbed by the RCMP in 1950, after 92 years​

Standing before the B.C. Legislature on March 27, 1950, then-attorney general Gordon Wismer launched a passionate argument for replacing the provincial police force with the RCMP.

Bringing in the Mounties would make policing more efficient, boost national security and save the provincial government more than $1 million, he said. Police officers themselves, he insisted, didn't have reason to worry – they would end up with better training, better pay and better pensions with the RCMP.

One newspaper columnist said it was Wismer's "finest, most determined" defence of a government plan to date. But many, including police officers themselves, were still bewildered when the B.C. Provincial Police was abruptly shut down that August.

More than 70 years later, the issue of who is best suited to police B.C. reached the legislature again on Thursday. A committee of MLAs had agreed, unanimous across party lines, that the province should ditch the RCMP and re-establish a provincial police force.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-provincial-police-force-1958-to-1950-1.6436025

A number of the provinces had provincial police services for various periods. I think BC's was just the last to disband.

Pension considerations can be huge due to when you can 'vest' and actually draw an unreduced pension... Laterals are usually best either in your first decade of service, or after you've hit the number of years that let you take an immediate unreduced pension. In the latter case it actually makes a hell of a lot more financial sense to change to a different employer and double dip a new salary on top of a pension. (note that indexing may not be immediate even if an unreduced pension is)

There was very little interest in streamlining pension entitlements in Ontario for many years. Typically, members moving between municipal and provincial services were younger and willing to take whatever hit. When the government changed the Police Services Act to make municipalities responsible for policing (and simultaneously introduced a standard OPP contract costing formula), a lot of smaller municipalities opted to disband their service but the impact on members - who had no say in the matter - was significant and convoluted. Some accommodations were arrived at but it was still very convoluted. This also coincided with an increase of municipal members voluntarily 'patching over' (not many OPP members go the other way), so there were ex-municipal members working in the OPP with different pay impacts depending on how they got there. Legislative changes, mostly because of arbitration rulings, streamlined the process.

 

[RedFive]

How much longer does Surrey own you?

According to the way business was conducted before I'm releasable and would have to be considered for any lateral or promotion I was interested in.

What's happening right now is unless you're taking a Divisional priority post or a promotion they can't block, you aren't leaving.

 

[Booter]

According to the way business was conducted before I'm releasable and would have to be considered for any lateral or promotion I was interested in.

What's happening right now is unless you're taking a Divisional priority post or a promotion they can't block, you aren't leaving.

edit- actually I shouldn’t post that here

 

[RedFive]

edit- actually I shouldn’t post that here

My PM's are open if you feel it worth while.

 

[mariomike]

Too many people forget that pensions are designed to handcuff you to an employer - not because your employer particularly cares about you.

I've never changed employers, but as an OMERS member just shy of 51 years, it is my understanding that as municipal employees, police officers, firefighters and paramedics can transfer from one municipality to another, within Ontario, with no effect on their OMERS pension.

Always best to check to confirm,

OMERS - Home

OMERS pension income provides peace of mind. With the OMERS defined benefit pension plan you can confidently retire knowing that you will have income for life. The money you set aside from every paycheque is matched by your employer, and we carefully invest it in high-quality assets, diversified...

www.omers.com

 

[brihard]

I've never changed employers, but as an OMERS member just shy of 51 years, it is my understanding that as municipal employees, police officers, firefighters and paramedics can transfer from one municipality to another, within Ontario, with no effect on their OMERS pension.

Always best to check to confirm,

OMERS - Home

OMERS pension income provides peace of mind. With the OMERS defined benefit pension plan you can confidently retire knowing that you will have income for life. The money you set aside from every paycheque is matched by your employer, and we carefully invest it in high-quality assets, diversified...

www.omers.com

Within OMERS, yeah, that’s absolutely my understanding. It gets trickier when you’re talking about transfers to different pension plans, either in municipalities in different provinces, or to/from provincial or federal plans. An increasing number of pension plans have transfer agreements in place, but some do not.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I know police forces poach off of each other but to buy ads on Facebook?

https://www.facebook.com/SurreyPS?_...g_yRw9rZmZ5SNe6r2Qi8xQpDObUzQqg&[B]tn[/B]=<*F

Surrey Police Service​

rnedsootSpMPrrF 4 ai15:0303t14h7lbfa19culhy 3f39e511guf0c f5 ·

You bring more than the average police officer; we bring more than the average police agency.
Surrey Police Service will be in Mississauga to meet with experienced officers interested in joining SPS. Our Recruiting team will be available from March 8 and 10, if you’d like to know more about a career at SPS email: careers@surreypolice.ca

Well I guess Surrey is a rad closer then this recruitment ad that just showed up on my FB feed.

 

[lenaitch]

Well I guess Surrey is a rad closer then this recruitment ad that just showed up on my FB feed.

Now there's a country that took amalgamation to the next level. For general law enforcement, seven state police services plus the federal police. That's it - no municipal services.

 

[brihard]

Now there's a country that took amalgamation to the next level. For general law enforcement, seven state police services plus the federal police. That's it - no municipal services.

Hell, I think New Zealand went a step further- one national police service for everything and everywhere.

 

[OldSolduer]

Hell, I think New Zealand went a step further- one national police service for everything and everywhere.

That does simplify things doesn't it? Mind you New Zealand doesn't have the land mass Canada does.

 

[RangerRay]

It makes sense for a small country like New Zealand to have one force.

Germany also follows the Australian model, although city-states like Berlin, Hanover and Bremen are de facto municipal forces.

Law enforcement in Germany - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[BrianWL]

It makes sense for a small country like New Zealand to have one force.

Germany also follows the Australian model, although city-states like Berlin, Hanover and Bremen are de facto municipal forces.

Law enforcement in Germany - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I have worked with a number of European cops, who are all quite puzzled by the Canadian/American patchwork of police approach. Typically, they have a handful of very large services, and as far as I have learned from them, very few have a huge batch of smaller departments tied to local government. I think the Aussies have it right. State police for each state, covering everything but international/national work, which their federal service takes on........if applied here, 10 x provincial police agencies, and the mounties on a national spectrum. not sure where the territories would lie. very small populations spread over huge geographic areas. all the muni's would be part of a provincial department. less overhead, more boots.

 

[Halifax Tar]

What kind of legislative gymnastics would need to be imposed across the country to collapse all municipal PFs into Provincial ones ?

 

[BrianWL]

What kind of legislative gymnastics would need to be imposed across the country to collapse all municipal PFs into Provincial ones ?

a massive amount of staff work. but its not impossible - for instance - in Ontario/Quebec - it could be legislated by either provincial government. the rest of the country - would need to stand up provincial police to cover off the former RCMP contracts for the province and for certain municipalities on an RCMP contract. so likely not likely any time in the foreseeable future. but it has been done elsewhere, Netherlands used to have a bunch of smaller departments, they saw fit to trim down to a national police force for civilian policing, and a military police force for policing the armed forces and conducting certain civilian jobs such as border control.

 

[lenaitch]

The advantages most European countries have is more consistency in population density and a smaller geographic footprint. The Australian model is interesting and would be closer to our situation. I have no clue about the history that got them to where they are. I have no clue as to their municipal-state taxation but, an example placed in our context, taxpayers in Toronto would be funding police services in Dryden. In my observation, whenever services are 'homogenized' between more and less dense areas, the less dense areas suffer. I don't know how Australia manages that.

I'm not sure that the Atlantic and some of the prairie provinces could support their own service without much federal funding. The territories are a federal responsibility and would need massive federal support. What's the tax base of Nunavut?

Larger is often better in terms of breadth of services, but I'm wondering what problem this would be trying to solve.

 

[BrianWL]

a massive amount of staff work. but its not impossible - for instance - in Ontario/Quebec - it could be legislated by either provincial government. the rest of the country - would need to stand up provincial police to cover off the former RCMP contracts for the province and for certain municipalities on an RCMP contract. so likely not likely any time in the foreseeable future. but it has been done elsewhere, Netherlands used to have a bunch of smaller departments, they saw fit to trim down to a national police force for civilian policing, and a military police force for policing the armed forces and conducting certain civilian jobs such as border control.

albeit, Netherlands is much smaller geographically, and has roughly half of our population......

 

[mariomike]

I have no clue as to their municipal-state taxation but, an example placed in our context, taxpayers in Toronto would be funding police services in Dryden.

Speaking as a city taxpayer, I believe most, including members of service, and their unions, are satisfied their emergency services remain separate from provincial.

I have never heard a word otherwise.

City police, paramedic and fire departments have taken care of the same 243 square milies since 1957, 1967 and 1998 respectively.

Is this a bright idea to "lead change" from Queen's Park?

 

[QV]

The advantages most European countries have is more consistency in population density and a smaller geographic footprint. The Australian model is interesting and would be closer to our situation. I have no clue about the history that got them to where they are. I have no clue as to their municipal-state taxation but, an example placed in our context, taxpayers in Toronto would be funding police services in Dryden. In my observation, whenever services are 'homogenized' between more and less dense areas, the less dense areas suffer. I don't know how Australia manages that.

I'm not sure that the Atlantic and some of the prairie provinces could support their own service without much federal funding. The territories are a federal responsibility and would need massive federal support. What's the tax base of Nunavut?

Larger is often better in terms of breadth of services, but I'm wondering what problem this would be trying to solve.

Let's just call the funding "equalization" and do it.

Provincial forces in every province doing all manner of policing except federal mandates which is strictly the RCMP. All provinces share in the expense of policing the territories and provide a rotation of officers (like the RCMP does now) to police those areas, managed by a federal office probably the RCMP.

 

[Booter]

Let's just call the funding "equalization" and do it.

Provincial forces in every province doing all manner of policing except federal mandates which is strictly the RCMP. All provinces share in the expense of policing the territories and provide a rotation of officers (like the RCMP does now) to police those areas, managed by a federal office probably the RCMP.

Yeah and also- we re done with regimental identities too. That’s nonsense- one army. Simpler and shouldn’t causes any issues. The reserves and various units will understand the benefits and cooperate.