The utility of three military colleges, funded undergrad degrees; Officer trg & the need for a degre

[GAP]

Military colleges to lose 1 in 3 professors
RMC to be hardest hit, association says
By Jeff Davis, Ottawa Citizen April 6, 2012
Article Link

Federal budget cuts targeting Canada's military colleges will eliminate up to one-third of the jobs now held by professors, says their professional association.

Jean-Marc Noel, a professor of physics and president of the Canadian Military Colleges Faculty Association, said Thursday he has been given a list of 68 faculty members that the Department of National Defence is looking to get rid of to cut costs.

That number represents more than a third of the approximately 185 faculty teaching at Canada's military colleges: Royal Military College in Kingston, the Canadian Forces College in Toronto and the Royal Military College campus in Saint-Jean, Que.

"It's going to seriously negatively affect the institution," he said. "My problem is if you're cutting to the bone, which is what they're doing now, they're jeopardizing their own reputations."

All the names are tenured professors who are locked into long-term union contracts with the colleges, Noel said. The list includes 35 full professors, 25 associate professors, six assistant professors and two senior lecturers who do not hold doctorates. Of the 68, Noel said, a majority teach at the Kingston campus, the largest of the three.

Strict union work rules mean that professors will not take on extra teaching burdens on any sustained basis, Noel said, so fewer profs means fewer classes. "They're saying we're going to have to do more with less," he said. "I hope they realize we'll be doing less with less because the work has not disappeared."

Neither the Royal Military College, the Department of National Defence nor Defence Minister Peter MacKay's office would confirm the plan.
end

 

[aesop081]

"They're saying we're going to have to do more with less," he said. "I hope they realize we'll be doing less with less because the work has not disappeared."

:crybaby:

I didn't realize that RMC was different than the rest of the CF.

My bad.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Genuine question for those in the know at RMC, but could that number of profs have been required over he past 15 years to get us to current state of a fully degreed officer corps?

 

[McG]

That number represents more than a third of the approximately 185 faculty teaching at Canada's military colleges: Royal Military College in Kingston, the Canadian Forces College in Toronto and the Royal Military College campus in Saint-Jean, Que.

How much of that pain could be mitigated if all three colleges shared a common campus and existed as a single university?

 

[dapaterson]

Note that "affected" does not mean "Terminated".  My understanding is that if there are, say, five associate basketweaving professors, and the department is to be reduced to four, then all five current associate professors are considered "affected" as one will be terminated.  Thus, until it's decided who is terminated all five are considered affected.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

How much of that pain could be mitigated if all three colleges shared a common campus and existed as a single university?

Perhaps we've come to a point where there is no requirement for RMC to have undergraduate programs.  All ROTP could be done through civie U's, without the overhead of the campus, and RMC could focus on post-grad, military related programs.  Aside from the arguments of esprit-de-corps and experience, what is really lost for someone getting a BA-English at U of Ottawa vice RMC?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Perhaps we've come to a point where there is no requirement for RMC to have undergraduate programs.  All ROTP could be done through civie U's, without the overhead of the campus, and RMC could focus on post-grad, military related programs.  Aside from the arguments of esprit-de-corps and experience, what is really lost for someone getting a BA-English at U of Ottawa vice RMC?

What? No RingKnockers? Blasphemy! ;D

 

[Infanteer]

Perhaps we've come to a point where there is no requirement for RMC to have undergraduate programs.  All ROTP could be done through civie U's, without the overhead of the campus, and RMC could focus on post-grad, military related programs.  Aside from the arguments of esprit-de-corps and experience, what is really lost for someone getting a BA-English at U of Ottawa vice RMC?

Or better yet, turn RMC into a Sandhurst 1-year program for all Officer entry plans.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

What? No RingKnockers? Blasphemy! ;D

I suspect that is why we'll never see the end of RMC.  Though, as infanteer said, if we got rid of the Undergrad part of RMC it would also eliminate the wasted time in the training system, as there would be less time between 1.1 and 1.2 training for officers waiting for their RMC counterparts.  Someone should not be almost half way to a CD before they're trained..... (4-5 years undergrad)

 

[aesop081]

Or maybe *gasp* re-evaluate the "degrees for all" requirement ?

Re-start the Officer Candidate Training Plan ?

 

[Old Sweat]

We were having this frigging debate when I was an officer cadet and that was before most of you were even a gleam in you old man's eye.  :facepalm:

 

[PuckChaser]

Or maybe *gasp* re-evaluate the "degrees for all" requirement ?

Re-start the Officer Candidate Training Plan ?

Now that's blasphemy.

Being able to sit and memorize information for 4 years and a gain a piece of paper does not a leader make.

 

[Drag]

Now that's blasphemy.

Being able to sit and memorize information for 4 years and a gain a piece of paper does not a leader make.

No a BA/BSc/ BEng, etc does not make one a better leader at the tactical level, but officer ranks do not end at Maj and responsibilities do not end at OC...  It is at the staff/HQ positions that the value of both bachelor and advanced degrees really comes out.  This is where tactical excellence takes a back seat to being able to think at the operational/strategic level.  The most valuable thing I got out of my degree (which is not very applicable to my current field of employment) is how to learn and how to logically reason my way though a problem and effectively articulate it in writing.

In my last job I had 2 peers and superior without degrees (most that came up from the ranks), and while their military knowledge was/is far superior to mine the lack of formal education impacted their ability to excel in a job where we dealt with staff at multiple L1s, OGDs, MND's and DM's staff.  Even though the most jr guy there (TI/rank) the section head heavily depended on me for higher end staff work (long term planning, staffing MND submissions/ remits, providing feedback to central staff efforts) and had me QC the staff work of the others before it was allowed to leave the section.

There is a reason the CF went to a all degree officer corps and we will not be going back any time soon.

 

[aesop081]

There is a reason the CF went to a all degree officer corps and we will not be going back any time soon.

Fallout from the Somalia inquiry and nothing more.

 

[Drag]

Fallout from the Somalia inquiry and nothing more.

Or the realization that the LCol Section Head/ Director or the Maj PD/PM/ Senior Analyst need to be just as well educated as their counterparts at TBS/PWGSC/DFAIT/ Public Safety/ CSEC in order to be able to operate on the same level with them and not have them run circles around us at our detriment.

 

[aesop081]

Or the realization that the LCol Section Head/ Director or the Maj PD/PM/ Senior Analyst need to be just as well educated as their counterparts at TBS/PWGSC/DFAIT/ Public Safety/ CSEC in order to be able to operate on the same level with them and not have them run circles around us at our detriment.

So, does this make it necessary for every single CF officer to spend 4 years at university ?

Would a different program (1-2 years), more targeted be a better option ?

An infantry officer with a english literature degree is no more prepared to be a project director than an infantry officer with no degree. Now imagine if we replaced 4 years of RMC at entry to the CF with a 1 year "project management" course when a guy gets to Maj and is identified for such a position.

 

[Drag]

So, does this make it necessary for every single CF officer to spend 4 years at university ?

Would a different program (1-2 years), more targeted be a better option ?

If you are only planning to employ an officer at the tactical level up to the rank of Maj, a degree is not necessary, however can we afford to maintain a separate stream of officers with the size of our force... I submit we do not, that is why having the was majority of the officer corps with degrees makes sense.

 

[J_dog]

Or better yet, turn RMC into a Sandhurst 1-year program for all Officer entry plans.

I completely agree, it would be best if all officers attended Civi U first then attend a 1 yr Officer "finishing" program like is done in the UK; Sandhurst for the Army, Dartmouth for the Royal Navy, Cranwell for the RAF.
(although depending on the entry plan some UK Officers to not have that initial degree).

Majority of Civi Uni's offer more courses, more degrees and far better varsity sports programs then RMC does and would give the future Officer a better background to start with.

My 2 cents.

 

[Drag]

An infantry officer with a english literature degree is no more prepared to be a project director than an infantry officer with no degree. Now imagine if we replaced 4 years of RMC at entry to the CF with a 1 year "project management" course when a guy gets to Maj and is identified for such a position.

I disagree, the Inf O with an English degree still has much more developed analytical/critical thinking skills then without the degree, having been a PD, that is one of the most aspects of the job.  The PM course would give you to tools and the processes/best practices to be more effective in the job but is not structured to give one critical thinking skills.  A mbr with a PM course without the psot secondary background could efficiently execute the mechanics of project management but would not be able to apply the same level of mental rigor that someone with a degree could. 

 

[aesop081]

I disagree, the Inf O with an English degree still has much more developed analytical/critical thinking skills then without the degree, having been a PD, that is one of the most aspects of the job. 

Fair enough. I simply put much less faith into a degree that you i guess. I know too many people with degrees who have the analytical/critical skills that would only rival a 5-year old.

Thanks for you perspective.