The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[lenaitch]

There is a big difference between the occasional forward deployment and doing it on a continuous basis and it is anything but a slight increase. It would have to be for at least a month at a time or the costs would be prohibitive. 88 a/c only allows for 3 24 a/c squadrons so 12 six packs. Send one to each coast and that allows for 4 complete rotations so your flight crews are gone one month in 4. Not good. Do you take your own a/c or are they forward deployed and you crew them up? If they are forward deployed you will need permanent ground crew so you are back with the same problem or you will have to deploy them as well. I guess you could second the kingfishers to act as taxis but we do not have a/c available to provide crew shuttle services.
So the alternative is to bring your own a/c which would burn up your 5000 hour life really fast and you still have the same problem with ground crew. Assuming MX as the central base, that gives you 5 hours flying time to a west coast advanced base and 2.5 I think to Gander or Goose for an east coast deployment. Going north will be over 2 hours (I am guessing at that one). These are what seem from a logistical and HR viewpoint as huge negatives. You need to find a compromise where people will live. North Bay isn't a bad town and there is a lot of activity. Provide a weekend shuttle service to YYZ and you might develop some interest. But it is still a long way from the coasts.

Also, won't major maintenance be done in the US? The aircraft won't ferry themselves.

I know nothing of the life of a RCAF fighter pilot but I suspect between deployments, taskings, exercises, operations, etc., being based in a place where the family is happy but you are never there might be little better than someplace that they are less happy about but you are home more.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Also, won't major maintenance be done in the US? The aircraft won't ferry themselves.

I know nothing of the life of a RCAF fighter pilot but I suspect between deployments, taskings, exercises, operations, etc., being based in a place where the family is happy but you are never there might be little better than someplace that they are less happy about but you are home more.

Operating small NORAD dets inherently reduces your capacity to Force Generate at MOB. With the few assets we have, it would be extremely difficult to run a continuous NORAD det, run an FG program enough to sustain the Force and project force (whether on exercise or for FE).

 

[lenaitch]

Operating small NORAD dets inherently reduces your capacity to Force Generate at MOB. With the few assets we have, it would be extremely difficult to run a continuous NORAD det, run an FG program enough to sustain the Force and project force (whether on exercise or for FE).

Not sure what you just said, but thanks.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

When you take your big unit and continually spread it out all over the country, eventually, you will have no unit….

 

[Fabius]

Trump Administration aside, it’s likely beneficial for Canada to get involved in one of the 6th Gen programs now.
Similar to how we joined the JSF program in 1997. Maybe though we can learn to not insist on a fly off competition between GCAP, FCAS and NGAD after spending 15 years resourcing and being involved in one of said programs.

 

[Maxman1]

Who covers the coasts ? The USAF ?

Station a squadron on each coast, at Comox and either Greenwood, Shearwater or Gander.

 

[ytz]

the landing gear? Ground equipment such as APUs? Definitely simulators and a lot of countryside where everyone could fly them to their hearts content

We have industry that makes good avionics and cockpit displays. We have companies that make decent structural components, etc. We have companies that make fantastic sensors. Think Wescam. Simulators and landing gear are a small part of the Canadian aerospace sector.

 

[ytz]

There is a big difference between the occasional forward deployment and doing it on a continuous basis and it is anything but a slight increase. It would have to be for at least a month at a time or the costs would be prohibitive.

Send one to each coast and that allows for 4 complete rotations so your flight crews are gone one month in 4.

You think we forward deploy dets to the coasts 100% of the time?

 

[ytz]

Perhaps for some professions, but if the potential spousal employment is retail or pretty much anything public facing, more difficult. And as mentioned, if provincially regulated, such as teaching, healthcare, etc., how to pass a French-only qualification process.

Most spouses aren't complaining about lacking access to retail jobs. There's the on base CANEX for that.

You also discount the proportion of the CAF, the fighter force and families that are francophone. Sadly, typical for Canada.

 

[lenaitch]

Most spouses aren't complaining about lacking access to retail jobs. There's the on base CANEX for that.

Really. Big employer are they?

You also discount the proportion of the CAF, the fighter force and families that are francophone. Sadly, typical for Canada.

No I'm not. You're the one advocating that all of our fighter fleet be concentrated in a Francophone province and discounting the reality that not all families and spouses are bilingual.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Most spouses aren't complaining about lacking access to retail jobs. There's the on base CANEX for that.

You also discount the proportion of the CAF, the fighter force and families that are francophone. Sadly, typical for Canada.

At 3 Wing, the vast majority of techs, and over 1/2 the pilots are francophones. While employment is an issue for some spouses, it is not for most.

We have francophones posted to English provinces all the time. They and their families adapt and thrive. Nothing preventing anglophone families to do the same.

 

[dapaterson]

Really. Big employer are they?


No I'm not. You're the one advocating that all of our fighter fleet be concentrated in a Francophone province and discounting the reality that not all families and spouses are bilingual.

Montreal is a bilingual city with two English universities. Much more amenable for an Anglophone than, say Edmonton for a Francophone.

 

[ytz]

Really. Big employer are they?


No I'm not. You're the one advocating that all of our fighter fleet be concentrated in a Francophone province and discounting the reality that not all families and spouses are bilingual.

Feel free to correct the actual fighter pilot in this thread who shares my sentiment.

Here's the thing about a lot of CAF members, compared to those who never served. We actually do appreciate all of Canada. Including Quebec.

 

[ytz]

Montreal is a bilingual city with two English universities. Much more amenable for an Anglophone than, say Edmonton for a Francophone.

The literal complaint from a lot of military members is professional opportunities for their spouses. Not a shortage of retail jobs. And let's be honest, Type A fighter jocks aren't very likely to end up with a retail clerk (assortative mating and all).

On this front, Montreal offers professionals, even Anglos, substantially more economic opportunity than Cold Lake. And even more than Edmonton. Montreal is only behind Toronto, for the number of multinationals and international organizations. And that means, there's jobs for anglophones. Those jobs are harder to get for those moving from other provinces. But less of a problem for a military spouse posted in Quebec.

 

[OldSolduer]

Feel free to correct the actual fighter pilot in this thread who shares my sentiment.

Here's the thing about a lot of CAF members, compared to those who never served. We actually do appreciate all of Canada. Including Quebec.

I am not a fighter pilot BUT I really enjoyed serving with Francos.

I was on the Infantry DP3B course (Platoon 2 I/C) course and I was slotted in Three Section (The Franco Section). I don't speak French - and some of my section mates didn't speak English. Some were bilingual so it worked out. It came to the point when patrol orders were given, between map symbols and picking up on key words, I would waive the briefer and say "not needed, thanks" and we'd carry on in French. If I had something to say, one of the guys would translate.
AND I would clean the C6 MG - they really liked that!

 

[Czech_pivo]

Slightly altering the conversation.
The current review of the F35's, some questions.

1) If the Liberals do not form the next government, does this review stop or will it run its natural course and the results be presented to the next Min of Def?
2) Can this review be completed prior to the end of the Federal election and its results be acted upon by the current Min of Def prior to the end of the Federal election

 

[YZT580]

You think we forward deploy dets to the coasts 100% of the time?

I know you don't now but if all your resources are somewhere in the middle that will change.

 

[ytz]

I know you don't now but if all your resources are somewhere in the middle that will change.

Our resources are kind of in the middle now. Both Cold Lake and Bagotville are sufficiently far from either coast that any sort of persistent effort would require a det. But this scenario is mostly discountable. The coasts are surveilled with MPAs, satellites and soon drones. The demand for fighters out there is limited (and hopefully going down). The real demand is several points in the Arctic. And on that front, whether it's centralized in Mirabel or split at the two wings doesn't make a huge difference.

 

[ytz]

Slightly altering the conversation.
The current review of the F35's, some questions.

1) If the Liberals do not form the next government, does this review stop or will it run its natural course and the results be presented to the next Min of Def?
2) Can this review be completed prior to the end of the Federal election and its results be acted upon by the current Min of Def prior to the end of the Federal election

Very much depends what was asked for and what the next government wants to do. If it's just a policy report, the analysts at the relevant agencies can put it together and send it up. It's up to the government what they want to do with that information. Mostly though, it's just policy analysts at DND/ADM(Pol), PCO, Global Affairs and Industry Canada laying out the impacts of various options for the government to consider.

 

[lenaitch]

Feel free to correct the actual fighter pilot in this thread who shares my sentiment.

Here's the thing about a lot of CAF members, compared to those who never served. We actually do appreciate all of Canada. Including Quebec.

Watch you don't fall of that pedestal.

I have not served, just reflecting what those few who I know who have been posted to Quebec have mentioned. Granted, not fighter pilots, but there are a lot of trades involved.