The Holocaust Just Got More Shocking
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OldSolduer
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ObedientiaZelum said:
Shocking - yes. You lose over 20 million people is shocking.
Surprising? Not at all. We are barbarians despite our veneer of civilization.
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One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic.
Joseph Stalin
Joseph Stalin
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The National Socialists were pikers compared to their Communist counterparts, Stalin's death toll starts at an estimated 20 million and Mao is responsible for up to 60 million deaths during his tenure. Even smaller countries like Cambodia suffered proportionately, something like 3 million people were left to rot in the Killing fields...
Perhaps the only real difference between the National Socialists and the others is their mania for excellent book keeping; you won't find definitive records from Russia, China or other places to verify the count.
While *we* may not have been angels either, the toll the Allies exacted was lower by orders of magnitude. The death toll was more a case of collateral damage rather than the panned and systematic destruction of peoples defined by ethnicity or economic class.
Perhaps the only real difference between the National Socialists and the others is their mania for excellent book keeping; you won't find definitive records from Russia, China or other places to verify the count.
While *we* may not have been angels either, the toll the Allies exacted was lower by orders of magnitude. The death toll was more a case of collateral damage rather than the panned and systematic destruction of peoples defined by ethnicity or economic class.
OldSolduer
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Good points but still....it is estimated that Ghengis Khan was responsible for at least 10 million deaths. It may be more.
My point?
We will kill each other in the 10s of millions if we think there may be no consequences. And it has happened all through history.
My point?
We will kill each other in the 10s of millions if we think there may be no consequences. And it has happened all through history.
True enough,Jim Seggie said:
men have been slaughtering each other for thousands of years but the Holocaust
was the only industralized manufacture of mass death which included process improvements
for maximum efficiency.
Very much like what we know as the assembly line.
OldSolduer
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ghengis khan did it.GAP said:
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I have to agree with chevy on this one. Not only in the industrialization of it but the fact that they so meticulously documented it.
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Jim Seggie said:
He also apparently has over 16 million descendants in central Asia (Dan Bradley, Trinity College Dublin). Says a lot about him.
From Canada News Centre (news.gc.ca)
WTG Canada
Canada to Lead the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance
Berlin, March 5, 2013 — Canada today assumed the chairmanship of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance and committed to an ambitious campaign in the year ahead to raise Holocaust awareness and fight anti-Semitism.
Citizenship, Immigration and Multiculturalism Minister Jason Kenney, along with this year’s Chair of the Alliance, Dr. Mario Silva, attended a ceremony in Berlin where Belgium handed over the chairmanship to Canada.
“Our government believes it is critically important to be engaged in efforts to teach future generations the lessons of the Holocaust and help prevent future acts of genocide,” said Minister Kenney. “The Holocaust stands alone in the annals of human evil and has important lessons to teach all of us—universal lessons that must not be forgotten.”
Canada became actively involved with the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance in 2007, and became a full member in 2009. Canada will Chair the Alliance until March 2014.
The International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance is an intergovernmental body made up of government officials and experts from 31 countries. It is devoted to fostering and promoting Holocaust education, remembrance and research around the world. Each year, the Alliance nominates a member country to assume leadership of the organization.
“As Chair, Canada will work with all Alliance member countries to implement an ambitious, multi‑year work plan that includes research into Holocaust killing sites outside of major death camps, the development of educational resources for teachers, and strengthened relationships with international partners,” said Dr. Silva.
The handover ceremony was also marked by the restitution of a painting from the Stuttgart Gallery in Germany to the estate of the late Jewish-Canadian art dealer, Max Stern. With the Nazis’ ascension to power in the 1930s, the painting was part of a forced sale held by the Stern family. Today, the painting by the artist Master of Flémalle was returned to Concordia University in Montréal, which leads the Max Stern Art Restitution Project, one of the most recognized initiatives of its kind in the world.
Many events and initiatives in support of Holocaust education and remembrance will also take place across Canada this year, among them the undertaking of a national project to preserve survivor testimony, an Award for Excellence in Holocaust Education to recognize outstanding teachers, and an international poster competition for Canadian students in Graphics, Art and Design to support Holocaust Memorial Day activities. In addition, the development of a new Holocaust memorial in Canada’s National Capital Region is underway.
Canada is recognized as an international leader in the fight against anti-Semitism. In 2011, Canada was the first country to sign the Ottawa Protocol on Combating Anti‑Semitism, an international action plan to help nations measure their progress in the fight against anti-Semitism.
The International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance Conference will be held in Toronto in October 2013.
The International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance was founded in 2000 under the name Task Force for International Cooperation on Holocaust Education, Remembrance and Research (ITF).
more at link...
WTG Canada
Canada to Lead the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance
Berlin, March 5, 2013 — Canada today assumed the chairmanship of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance and committed to an ambitious campaign in the year ahead to raise Holocaust awareness and fight anti-Semitism.
Citizenship, Immigration and Multiculturalism Minister Jason Kenney, along with this year’s Chair of the Alliance, Dr. Mario Silva, attended a ceremony in Berlin where Belgium handed over the chairmanship to Canada.
“Our government believes it is critically important to be engaged in efforts to teach future generations the lessons of the Holocaust and help prevent future acts of genocide,” said Minister Kenney. “The Holocaust stands alone in the annals of human evil and has important lessons to teach all of us—universal lessons that must not be forgotten.”
Canada became actively involved with the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance in 2007, and became a full member in 2009. Canada will Chair the Alliance until March 2014.
The International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance is an intergovernmental body made up of government officials and experts from 31 countries. It is devoted to fostering and promoting Holocaust education, remembrance and research around the world. Each year, the Alliance nominates a member country to assume leadership of the organization.
“As Chair, Canada will work with all Alliance member countries to implement an ambitious, multi‑year work plan that includes research into Holocaust killing sites outside of major death camps, the development of educational resources for teachers, and strengthened relationships with international partners,” said Dr. Silva.
The handover ceremony was also marked by the restitution of a painting from the Stuttgart Gallery in Germany to the estate of the late Jewish-Canadian art dealer, Max Stern. With the Nazis’ ascension to power in the 1930s, the painting was part of a forced sale held by the Stern family. Today, the painting by the artist Master of Flémalle was returned to Concordia University in Montréal, which leads the Max Stern Art Restitution Project, one of the most recognized initiatives of its kind in the world.
Many events and initiatives in support of Holocaust education and remembrance will also take place across Canada this year, among them the undertaking of a national project to preserve survivor testimony, an Award for Excellence in Holocaust Education to recognize outstanding teachers, and an international poster competition for Canadian students in Graphics, Art and Design to support Holocaust Memorial Day activities. In addition, the development of a new Holocaust memorial in Canada’s National Capital Region is underway.
Canada is recognized as an international leader in the fight against anti-Semitism. In 2011, Canada was the first country to sign the Ottawa Protocol on Combating Anti‑Semitism, an international action plan to help nations measure their progress in the fight against anti-Semitism.
The International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance Conference will be held in Toronto in October 2013.
The International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance was founded in 2000 under the name Task Force for International Cooperation on Holocaust Education, Remembrance and Research (ITF).
more at link...
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Industrialization of genocide doesn't necessarily make it more efficient or horrific. If you look at the numbers that came out of the Rwandan genocide in the early 90's, between 500,000 to 1,000,000 people were killed in a period of about 100 days. This is roughly 20% of the population. And there was no industrial methodology in the way this was carried out.
But we can sit here and throw out example after example of periods when the Human Race degenerated back to something inhumane. When you boil this all down to numbers and statistics, you've lost all context that these were real living people who lived lives much the same as the rest of us. Simply because they were members of an ethnic group, held political beliefs that ran contrary to the government or were deemed unfit to live on the whim of some other person playing God, they were killed.
And when you've lost that context, it becomes too easy to have it happen again.
But we can sit here and throw out example after example of periods when the Human Race degenerated back to something inhumane. When you boil this all down to numbers and statistics, you've lost all context that these were real living people who lived lives much the same as the rest of us. Simply because they were members of an ethnic group, held political beliefs that ran contrary to the government or were deemed unfit to live on the whim of some other person playing God, they were killed.
And when you've lost that context, it becomes too easy to have it happen again.
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SeR said:
To all that asked to elaborate, I will move on since I've been unjustly accused of trolling and - many point's quite trivial.
Like I said this information has been vigorously discussed and documented over two decades ago believed by many to be
22, to 25, Million.
Total Deaths: 22 to 26 Million
Numbers based on these sources.
Michael Berenbaum,ed., A Mosaic of Victims: Non-Jews Persecuted and Murdered by the Nazis (New York/London, 1990), xi
Gilbert, Martin. The Holocaust: A History of the Jews of Europe during the Second World War. New York: Holt, Rinehart and Winston, 1985.
Lipstadt, Deborah E. Beyond Belief: the American Press & the Coming of the Holocaust 1933-1945. New York/London: The Free Press, 1986.
Lukas, Richard C. The Forgotten Holocaust: The Poles under German Occupation 1939-1944. Lexington, Kentucky: University Press of Kentucky, 1986.
Milton, Sybil. Senior Historian, The United States Holocaust Museum, Washington, DC. Telephone interview. with Karen Silverstrim, 16 April 1997.
Silverstrim, Karen. Overlooked Millions: Non-Jewish Victims of the Holocaust. MA Candidate, University of Central Arkansas.
http://phdast7.hubpages.com/hub/Civilians-Murdered-During-the-Holocaust
What I fined socking is those two researchers are trying to pocket, per-say from legwork others have done in the past two decades.
If I knew this information two decades ago and now it's been seen by the whole Main stream as fact. Why would I be shocked,
since I have vigorously discoursed this two decades ago.
Like I stated for 6 thousand years history and now believed to be 10-14 thousand years ago, clearly shows we have been barbaric
towards each other for what ever reason, and our thirst for blood. If history is any indication we are still in this day and age.
Do YOU know the term " 3 DAYS TO ANIMAL ?"
If you consider the manner in the way tens of thousands or more all together. Some estimates claim 20,000 a year, enemy's of the Aztec,
and all central and south American Indians, horrific manner they slaughtered while the majority were still alive ect.
Not counting the 6 thousand years, what happened in the First and Second is quite expected for us Humans.
Poe , Humm In 1997 the States that were involved in the Second World Ward, opened the files to public viewing.
Half of what's been written concerning accounts, is still up for debate.
War is usually written in a one sided perspective, the winners.
Also like I stated I grownup with Hasidic and Orthodox Jews for over 30 years, and found out about the "Great Catastrophe" or the Shoah
when I was 7, and never heard it discussed in any school history, even after I saw the Mini series The Holocaust.
Like I said many Jews I know consider the term Holocaust very offencive, a slur, to the Horrific and despicable nature the Jewish people endured
during the Second World War.
As for Poe ......Rabbi Abraham Moses Klein the poet ect. ect. ect., told me every coin has 3 sides.
Also read how Russian Jews were treated Pre and post Second World War.
moving on.
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http://www.ibtimes.com/new-encyclopedia-holocaust-will-completely-redraw-atrocities-third-reich-1183393?ft=h6k97
"With the recent discovery in early March of more than 42,200 new sites used by the Nazis as ghettos and labor, concentration and death camps, comes the redrawing of the map of World War II, the Holocaust and the Third Reich.
National Geographic reports that Geoffrey Megargee, one of the scholars who discovered the vast network of genocide, is now working on completely rewriting the book on the Holocaust. The planned seven-volume encyclopedia, which will be called “The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos, 1933-1945,” will include the new sites and is expected to dramatically alter the previously understood landscape of the Holocaust.
"To document this on a map and see how the Holocaust affected every single community throughout Europe makes quite clear the scope of the Nazi regime's murder campaign," said Martin Dean, the editor of the encyclopedia.
Sites with gas chambers are not the only ones under consideration for inclusion on the new map, Megargee told National Geographic. "We're not just looking at sites directly involved with the Holocaust, but with the entire range of persecutory facilities that the Nazis and their allies ran," he told National Geographic.
To be included, a site must have housed at least 20 people and have been in operation for at least a month. Descriptions of the sites will be drawn from any possible records that still exist as well as survivor testimony.
Two of the seven volumes of the new encyclopedia have already been released, the first in June 2009, and the second in April 2012. It is being published by the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington conjunction with Indiana University Press.
April 7-8 was Holocaust Remembrance Day in Israel, and April 7-13 marks Holocaust Remembrance Week in the U.S. "
"With the recent discovery in early March of more than 42,200 new sites used by the Nazis as ghettos and labor, concentration and death camps, comes the redrawing of the map of World War II, the Holocaust and the Third Reich.
National Geographic reports that Geoffrey Megargee, one of the scholars who discovered the vast network of genocide, is now working on completely rewriting the book on the Holocaust. The planned seven-volume encyclopedia, which will be called “The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos, 1933-1945,” will include the new sites and is expected to dramatically alter the previously understood landscape of the Holocaust.
"To document this on a map and see how the Holocaust affected every single community throughout Europe makes quite clear the scope of the Nazi regime's murder campaign," said Martin Dean, the editor of the encyclopedia.
Sites with gas chambers are not the only ones under consideration for inclusion on the new map, Megargee told National Geographic. "We're not just looking at sites directly involved with the Holocaust, but with the entire range of persecutory facilities that the Nazis and their allies ran," he told National Geographic.
To be included, a site must have housed at least 20 people and have been in operation for at least a month. Descriptions of the sites will be drawn from any possible records that still exist as well as survivor testimony.
Two of the seven volumes of the new encyclopedia have already been released, the first in June 2009, and the second in April 2012. It is being published by the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington conjunction with Indiana University Press.
April 7-8 was Holocaust Remembrance Day in Israel, and April 7-13 marks Holocaust Remembrance Week in the U.S. "
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I just noticed this tread and read through it. To be honest, I don't really know what some of the posters were trying to get across or if there is an overriding narrative with this thread.
But here is a number for perspective. During the Second World War, over 1 in 3 Jews were killed. At the start of the war there was approximately 16 million Jews. Approximately 6 million were killed.
Considering everything, and even the denials that happen to this day, I can't help but think the Jews have taken the Holocaust pretty well.
But here is a number for perspective. During the Second World War, over 1 in 3 Jews were killed. At the start of the war there was approximately 16 million Jews. Approximately 6 million were killed.
Considering everything, and even the denials that happen to this day, I can't help but think the Jews have taken the Holocaust pretty well.
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