The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0

[mariomike]

Wasn't talking about the time difference, but that it is relatively more difficult and requires a more stringent display of competency to get a drivers license than a PAL.

Got me there. Last time I did an MTO test was when I was 16.
The driver trainers where I worked had signing authority for the C Z.
Let it drop to a G after I retired.

 

[Jarnhamar]

There's some real idiots with guns but they seem to pale in comparison to other morons out here.
Throwing chairs off higher rise buildings, making young children run marathons, getting out of moving cars. Firearms competency doesn't seem to be an issue.

Places like Toronto, Calgary, Vancouver are seeing more and more shoot outs. Gun battles between growing gangs in a growing gang culture.

It's easily the biggest issue with firearms and the one that's getting the least attention it seems.

 

[Eaglelord17]

This has nothing to do with fudd culture.

Simple static 100m range for rifles with a 5 round, 6in group to pass. I would only allow open sights with optics for the elderly or those with medical need of them. Same for pistol make it 25 to 50m. Shotgun, trap is good idea. Or maybe 20 to 50m range.

Raise the cost for the course cover range rentals and ammo and extra compensation for the instructors.

I have 2 rental properties for neighbors. Know when the landlord's started getting good renters ? When they attached standards to the people they rented too and added raised then rent to the properties. Now they have had better success and their property isn't dump. Same logic applies here IMHO.

Nothing wrong with teaching your kids to shoot. Ive been teaching my daughter.

And since the statistics show all that your proposing is pointless and just a added cost to a already expensive sport, that's a hard pass from me. How about you do what you like with your firearms, and let everyone else do what they like. After a background check and ensuring there is no major mental issues, that should be the extent of the governments involvement. Have a non-expiring license, and let people carry on with their lives.

Just like registries, they always get used for confiscation. Doesn't have to be the government enacting the legislation to use it that way. The Nazis never enacted the firearm registry in Germany, but it sure did give them a good place to go and locate them.

What’s Fudd culture?

Generally a derogatory term referring basically to the guys who have their shotguns and .30-06's. They only care about themselves being able to hunt and are willing to throw all other firearms owners under the bus. Usually the Liberals or other groups will go and find a couple of these guys to make statements along the lines of 'I own firearms to hunt and there is no need for anyone to own a handgun or a assault weapon, they should be banned'.

There's some real idiots with guns but they seem to pale in comparison to other morons out here.
Throwing chairs off higher rise buildings, making young children run marathons, getting out of moving cars. Firearms competency doesn't seem to be an issue.

Places like Toronto, Calgary, Vancouver are seeing more and more shoot outs. Gun battles between growing gangs in a growing gang culture.

It's easily the biggest issue with firearms and the one that's getting the least attention it seems.

The Liberals are the ones creating the gang culture and using it to their political advantage. Since they put in the stupid catch and release bill, crime has skyrocketed in my city, bringing it to now the 5th most dangerous in Canada when a decade ago there was crime but it wasn't anywhere near what its at now. The criminals have lost all fear of consequences, saw a guy walking down a main street in broad daylight with a catalytic converter over their shoulder, they simply don't care any more. Breaking and enters, murders, cops being shot (when we can't even recall the last time cops were in a firefight here), etc.

Unfortunately to fix the problem is a expensive, time consuming one, which partially requires admitting they made mistakes. As we know from politicians that is not how they think. Much easier to leverage a quick fix which is putting lipstick on a pig and wait until the next election to bring it up again. At the moment that claimed fix is banning handguns because that will somehow solve the illegally smuggled firearms from the states getting into gang hands. If they succeed with that the next round would be banning all firearms because somehow that will solve it from there. And eventually we will get to be like the UK with 'save a life, bin that knife' yet still having the same crime rates overall.

This right here.

You can't claim to be law abiding if you subscribe to the "cold, dead hands" mentality.

Well it can make them a better person that someone who simply abides by the law. Plenty of evil things have been legal in this country. Did you know that until the 1950s Natives couldn't retain a lawyer by law? Or that we committed genocide with the laws backing us?

It is the right of the governed to determine what is tolerable to them. In this case you have a group being ostracized, vilified, and constantly attacked for no fault of their own. If they give a small amount the opposing side takes a mile and just shifts the goal posts. When the government goes and states they are going to expropriate their property (i.e. legalized theft), after they have jumped through all the hoops required to own it in the first place, I completely get why they would get like that. Especially since the government is basically threatening you to either comply or be killed.

 

[OldSolduer]

Just a guess, Elmer Fudd?

Yeah I know but I guess Fudd culture is what urban Canadians in Toronto think of people who own guns

 

[Jarnhamar]

The Liberals are the ones creating the gang culture and using it to their political advantage. Since they put in the stupid catch and release bill, crime has skyrocketed in my city, bringing it to now the 5th most dangerous in Canada when a decade ago there was crime but it wasn't anywhere near what its at now. The criminals have lost all fear of consequences, saw a guy walking down a main street in broad daylight with a catalytic converter over their shoulder, they simply don't care any more. Breaking and enters, murders, cops being shot (when we can't even recall the last time cops were in a firefight here), etc.

I'm not sure if I would place the blame solely on the Liberals regarding the increase in gangs, gang activity, and gang violence.

Since 2015 the numbers of shootings and gang activity certainly seems to have increased though.

I don't have a source or anything but just taking a guess here I think our level of immigration could be a contributing factor to the rise in gang activity too.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Got me there. Last time I did an MTO test was when I was 16.

And the engine was 1 horse power.

 

[Kat Stevens]

And the engine was 1 horse power.

 

[mariomike]

Yeah I know but I guess Fudd culture is what urban Canadians in Toronto think of people who own guns

I've been a gun owner all my life. I don't particularly care what strangers think.

 

[Halifax Tar]

"Fudds" are not the only lawful gun owners.

You're advocating for a standard that exceeds that of every LEA in Canada and is very rarely incorporated in sport shooting. Very few agencies still shoot beyond 15 metres with a pistol.

Sport shooting now becomes a pursuit for the well off? Range memberships are already climbing yearly.

I'm in agreement about "fudds" I don't know why this keeps coming up. Firearms is more than hunting and all shooting sports need to be protected and preserved.

Ok. Then use a 20m range. I'm not a hand gun guy so I will go with your SME ness.

The fact is our courses now are a joke. And the fact there is no practical shooting aspect is laughable, to me. Some simple standards with a displayed and recognized competence for safety and ability is all I want to see.

And since the statistics show all that your proposing is pointless and just a added cost to a already expensive sport, that's a hard pass from me. How about you do what you like with your firearms, and let everyone else do what they like. After a background check and ensuring there is no major mental issues, that should be the extent of the governments involvement. Have a non-expiring license, and let people carry on with their lives.

Just like registries, they always get used for confiscation. Doesn't have to be the government enacting the legislation to use it that way. The Nazis never enacted the firearm registry in Germany, but it sure did give them a good place to go and locate them.

Generally a derogatory term referring basically to the guys who have their shotguns and .30-06's. They only care about themselves being able to hunt and are willing to throw all other firearms owners under the bus. Usually the Liberals or other groups will go and find a couple of these guys to make statements along the lines of 'I own firearms to hunt and there is no need for anyone to own a handgun or a assault weapon, they should be banned'.

The Liberals are the ones creating the gang culture and using it to their political advantage. Since they put in the stupid catch and release bill, crime has skyrocketed in my city, bringing it to now the 5th most dangerous in Canada when a decade ago there was crime but it wasn't anywhere near what its at now. The criminals have lost all fear of consequences, saw a guy walking down a main street in broad daylight with a catalytic converter over their shoulder, they simply don't care any more. Breaking and enters, murders, cops being shot (when we can't even recall the last time cops were in a firefight here), etc.

Unfortunately to fix the problem is a expensive, time consuming one, which partially requires admitting they made mistakes. As we know from politicians that is not how they think. Much easier to leverage a quick fix which is putting lipstick on a pig and wait until the next election to bring it up again. At the moment that claimed fix is banning handguns because that will somehow solve the illegally smuggled firearms from the states getting into gang hands. If they succeed with that the next round would be banning all firearms because somehow that will solve it from there. And eventually we will get to be like the UK with 'save a life, bin that knife' yet still having the same crime rates overall.

Well it can make them a better person that someone who simply abides by the law. Plenty of evil things have been legal in this country. Did you know that until the 1950s Natives couldn't retain a lawyer by law? Or that we committed genocide with the laws backing us?

It is the right of the governed to determine what is tolerable to them. In this case you have a group being ostracized, vilified, and constantly attacked for no fault of their own. If they give a small amount the opposing side takes a mile and just shifts the goal posts. When the government goes and states they are going to expropriate their property (i.e. legalized theft), after they have jumped through all the hoops required to own it in the first place, I completely get why they would get like that. Especially since the government is basically threatening you to either comply or be killed.

Like it or not firearms ownership in Canada is a privilege not a right and the government has the power to ban them out right for civilian use if they so decide.

And I don't want to lose my firearms in part because some people in my community can't control their emotions around this subject.

There's some real idiots with guns but they seem to pale in comparison to other morons out here.
Throwing chairs off higher rise buildings, making young children run marathons, getting out of moving cars. Firearms competency doesn't seem to be an issue.

Places like Toronto, Calgary, Vancouver are seeing more and more shoot outs. Gun battles between growing gangs in a growing gang culture.

It's easily the biggest issue with firearms and the one that's getting the least attention it seems.

Absolutely, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to rid ourselves of those who do damage from the inside.

I will say I have a higher chance getting popped on the opening day for the orange army than I do walking around any major city in Canada. A lot of hunters shock me with how carelesss they are with their rifles and practices.

 

[suffolkowner]

Halifax Tar is there an actual problem with gun handling/proficiency though? Being better at handling a gun and putting rounds on target has nothing to do with whether you are an idiot or not in my experience. It's just a skill. I certainly dont think that private citizens should be held to a higher standard than LEO's

 

[Jarnhamar]

I will say I have a higher chance getting popped on the opening day for the orange army than I do walking around any major city in Canada. A lot of hunters shock me with how carelesss they are with their rifles and practices.

I hear you there.
Complete rumor mill and not really related but I heard at work an OC out in Wainwright was shot on the calf on a live fire range. Heard some tanks got peppered too. Wonder if there's any truth to that.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I hear you there.
Complete rumor mill and not really related but I heard at work an OC out in Wainwright was shot on the calf on a live fire range. Heard some tanks got peppered too. Wonder if there's any truth to that.

I know you can hunt the training area in Wainwright but even when there is training going on ? Sounds counter intuitive.

I used to hunt the Borden training area for turkey. Was very strict on where you could go.

 

[Brad Sallows]

FFS. Firearm safety is about handling and storage, not 6 inch groups.

 

[Halifax Tar]

FFS. Firearm safety is about handling and storage, not 6 inch groups.

Calm down old boy. It's a discussion forum you might bump into positions you disagree with. If you want an echo chamber go elsewhere.

Safe handling of a firearm should be more than identifying the right ammunition and how to cross a fence. We are cutting ourselves shot IMHO.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Safety should end with handling and storage, except for those who want to open the tent up to another camel's nose for escalation of increasingly burdensome rules.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Calm down old boy. It's a discussion forum you might bump into positions you disagree with. If you want an echo chamber go elsewhere.

Safe handling of a firearm should be more than identifying the right ammunition and how to cross a fence. We are cutting ourselves shot IMHO.

Brad is right.

You are the one conflating marksmanship and skill with firearms with firearms safety. Hitting a target should not be a governmental concern. A Government’s only concern should be that the right firearms are in the right people’s hands and that they are stored safely when not in use. Anything beyond that is over reach.

 

[Eaglelord17]

I'm not sure if I would place the blame solely on the Liberals regarding the increase in gangs, gang activity, and gang violence.

Since 2015 the numbers of shootings and gang activity certainly seems to have increased though.

I don't have a source or anything but just taking a guess here I think our level of immigration could be a contributing factor to the rise in gang activity too.

Catch and release is a significant part of that, these criminals are literally being caught committing crimes, immediately bailed, then go back to committing crimes again. Locally we had one guy get arrested for B&E taken to the station, and released. He proceeded to then hop on a bus, go up town, and break into 8 more houses in the next two hours.

Or another guy who was arrested 3 times in a month possessing illegal firearms and prohibited weapons (twice firearms once brass knuckles).

How are we supposed to keep our streets safe if we let criminals carry guns without any ramifications?

Toronto also has had issues since they stopped carding people. Before they would card them, so criminals wouldn’t carry guns on them and would instead have drop points. So if they saw someone they wanted to shoot they had to go to the drop point, grab the gun, and come back. Once they got rid of carding they all started carrying so now they just pull out and shoot.

Couple that all in with cops not wanting to be as engaged anymore thanks to movements like BLM and your other left leaning movements you have a recipe for disaster.

Like it or not firearms ownership in Canada is a privilege not a right and the government has the power to ban them out right for civilian use if they so decide.

And I don't want to lose my firearms in part because some people in my community can't control their emotions around this subject.

There is legal rights and there is natural rights. Just because it isn’t a legal right doesn’t mean someone else doesn’t consider it their natural one. According to our laws property ownership isn’t a enshrined right either though if the government was to just declare it was going to seize everything you possess people would likely rebel.

You aren’t going to lose any firearms because people are emotional about them, you are going to lose them because we have governments which wish to have them banned for no valid reason other than politics.

 

[Haggis]

You are the one conflating marksmanship and skill with firearms with firearms safety. Hitting a target should not be a governmental concern. A Government’s only concern should be that the right firearms are in the right people’s hands and that they are stored safely when not in use. Anything beyond that is over reach.

Québec has "Anastasia's Law", AKA Law 9 which has a live fire component. It stresses safe handling, not marksmanship.

I just returned home from a conducting a holster users training session at my club. These were existing club members who wanted to enter the action shooting sports at a local level (IPSC and/or IDPA). My focus was on safety, safety, then safety and technique. We did some marksmanship coaching as well. But, if you were unsafe, even in a minor way, you were gone. Go home, practice and sign up for the next session.

 

[Brad Sallows]

You aren’t going to lose any firearms because people are emotional about them, you are going to lose them because we have governments which wish to have them banned for no valid reason other than politics.

"Politics" is just a roundabout way of saying "people are emotional".

Broad-brush, the people most opposed to firearm ownership lean "progressive"; broad-brush, "progressives" claim to be data-driven science-based objective reasoning thinkers. Except on firearms policy, which is hairs-on-the-back-of-the-neck-gut-feeling-something-every-reasonable-person-knows underpants gnome territory:
1. More burdensome rules on already customarily law-abiding peaceful firearm owners.
2. ???
3. Fewer criminals using firearms to commit property and violent crimes.

 

[Haggis]

1. More burdensome rules on already customarily law-abiding peaceful firearm owners.
2. ???
3. Fewer criminals using firearms to commit property and violent crimes.

Except that 1 doesn't result in 3 unless 2 is a complete ban on all posession and importation. That didn't work even in island nations like UK, AUS and NZ who don't live next door to the biggest gun store in the Milky Way which, by Toronto Police statistics, supplies 86%+ of the crime guns in the GTA. That percentage is likely higher in regions of Canada with less police and CBSA enforcement.