The C7 Assault Rifle, M16, & AR15 family (C7A1, C7A2, C7 replacment, and C7 vs M16)

[geo]

It is interesting that while Canada went & modified it's C7/M16 to the point that it (C7A2) now posesses most of the features of the C8/M4, the US is simply looking to replace M16s with M4s. 

Does the C7A2 have a better reliability profile to the C8/M4?

Is the C7A2 the logical progression of the basic soldier's personal weapon OR should Canada & the US be buying something new right now?

 

[KevinB]

That info is actually flawed, the Hk416 had one problem gun which skewed the results - if the "lemon" was discarded as an aberant fluke - the Hk416 actually scored better than the XM-8 which "won".

Aberdeen Extreme Dust Test I = M4 vs M16A4 test in 2006
Aberdeen Extreme Dust Test II = M4 test summer of 2007
Aberdeen Extreme Dust Test III = M4 vs MK16 vs HK416 vs XM8 test November 2007

Carbines/rifles were subjected to 25 hours of constant, heavy dusting in laboratory conditions at Aberdeen Proving Ground, Md., 10 of each weapon fired 6,000 rounds apiece. They were fired in 50 120-round cycles. Each was then wiped and re-lubricated at the 600 round mark. After 1,200 rounds were fired from each weapon, they were fully cleaned and re-lubricated. All weapons exhibited significant wear that rendered them unsafe for firing beyond 6,000 rounds without replacement of the barrel and/or bolt.

MRBS (Mean Rounds Between Stoppage) for Class 1, 2, and 3 combined. A class 1 stoppage is one a Soldier can clear within 10 seconds; a class 2 stoppage is one a Soldier can clear, but requires more than 10 seconds; and, class 3 is a stoppage that requires an armorer to clear:

XM8: 472.5 MRBS (Extreme Dust Test III)

MK16 SCAR-L: 265.5 MRBS (Extreme Dust Test III)

416: 257.5 MRBS (Extreme Dust Test III)

M4: 195.5 MRBS (Extreme Dust Test II)

M16A4: 118 MRBS (Extreme Dust Test I)

M4: 89 MRBS (Extreme Dust Test I)

M4: 68 MRBS (Extreme Dust Test III)

M16A4: 28 MRBS (Extreme Dust Test I with light lube)

M4: 6 MRBS (Extreme Dust Test I with light lube)

MRBF data, this is a Class 3, meaning mean rounds before it is inoperatable (I can only find partial data):

XM8 5,454.5 MRBF (Extreme Dust Test III)

M4 5,454.5 MRBF (Extreme Dust Test II)

M4 3,158 MRBF (Extreme Dust Test III)

 

[KevinB]

GEO -- typically rifles will have a better MRBF and MRBS than carbines -- however its not always the case.

A C7A1/A2 is really just a M16A3 with an M16A4 flattop receiver (M16A3 is the select fire - non burst version of the A2)  With the addition of the H2 buffer and spring for the telestock - it should not alter the reliability.

The C8SFW/L119A1 had a bit better MRBF than the M4A1 - but the MRBS was near identical.

 

[KevinB]

Lastly -- any "extreme dust testing" will benifit piston guns as they run cooler - and do not burn off lube at the rate that DI guns do.
  Thus the DI gun looses its ability to move the crud much faster -- the reason why we all run our guns so wet in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Frankly - I'm still a beleiver that a M4A1 or C8SFW is ideal - and we would benifit far better by more rounds (and part replacement) for training than we would a new system, nothing I've experience over the last few years makes me beleive differently.

Now I'm not saying if I had a small arms budget I would not do it -- but I'd get a better optic, better mags and better ammo first.

 

[dapaterson]

I-6: But if you're going to lifecycle the small arms fleet, would you buy more of the same, or go for a system that can be an order of magnitude more reliable?

That's the main issue i nthe US:  They were trying by stealth to replace a significant portion of their small arms holdings without any evaluation or determination of what systems on the market would provide the best functionality.


I do agree that the CF needs to increase its small arms ammunition purchases and increase the number of live rounds soldiers fire in training.

 

[KevinB]

Fortunately I am not the LCMM SA - I just throw rocks at him  ;D

I've got a few ins down south - but not all the data, so its hard to make a lifecycle determination off one test for a specific environment.  I see why the desert dust environment is getting play -- but we need to be sure the systems function in the full spectrum of war.

I've been impressed with the Hk416's

Enough to let 9erD play with one.

I remain unconvinced that its a huge step forward, for most roles and environments however.  WRT to the US - not specifically as with CANSOF the procurement system is not inline with the conventional arm -- the SOF units can buy what they wish for their roles.
  SCAR was competed - the Hk416 was not allowed - and many units bought their own.
As for Big Army - well they need a real competition - with a statistically significant smaple size in the full spectrum of operations -- IF they are going to try to replace a system -- the M4 buys - are akin to the Hk416 - and perhaps there should be some research -- however the M4 is in the system...

I'd suggest that for most M16FOW armies with lowers that are still service able (a lot of CF ones are getting touchy from use and abuse over the last 20 years) that the Hk416 is a great COTS drop in.  However there are many drop in systems and before we jump on the Hk buy wagon -- we need to look at them all.
  For a full fleet replacement -- then a no holds barred open competiton, and dont anchor it to the C79...


 

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

So here I am looking on Wikipedia (yeah I know, reader beware) apparently Iceland uses the C8 as well. If its true, who would have thought....

 

[uzi]

does canada produce ar style rifle for civ market?

 

[1feral1]

EDIT.

No, you'll have to stick to US AR-15 family, numerous US facimiles, or Chi-Com copies.

 

[George Wallace]

does canada produce ar style rifle for civ market?

Have you ever visited Canadian Tire?

 

[Kyu]

I don't know for provinces outside of Quebec, but Canadian Tire in Quebec won't sell "guns" anymore. Hunting rifles or carbines, air rifles, airsoft, paintball and all related ammunition won't be sold in Quebec's Canadian Tire anymore. I was told so by a Canadian Tire employee, when I wanted to buy pellets for my air rifle.

Apparently it's because they don't want to lose time by locking/unlocking those items, and checking ID at the cash. I don't think it's the real reason though. I used to sell ammo and paintball stuff at Wal-Mart and it was as much of a hassle as selling a GPS.  :

 

[KevinB]

does canada produce ar style rifle for civ market?

Sorta - DLASK Arms in BC -- however their QC is suspect.

 

[Yrys]

A video that I'm not sure if it  already has been post :

AK-47 vs M-16


Could someone point the puzzled civilian lady that I am to explanations about the following :


How come the AK-47 seems to have so much more power that the M-16 in that video ?

I understand how come one (M-16) could be more precise, but they seem similar in the video,
and they don't explain why the AK-47 bullet has more pression ... (Would firepower be adequate here?)


Édith :Forget my questions,  ʞɔoɹɯɐɥs has answered them .

 

[J.V.Trooper]

The C7 is also used by Denmark, Holland (The Netherlands), and Norway and some police forces.

 

[Dirty Patricia]

The C7 is also used by Denmark, Holland (The Netherlands), and Norway and some police forces.

.........and UK SF.

 

[1feral1]

The C7 is also used by Denmark, Holland (The Netherlands), and Norway and some police forces.

And what is your point JV? Anyone the with Black Rifle II can read that.

How about filling your profile.

 

[uzi]

does colt Canada make everything of C7 by themself? or they buy something from other surppliers like spring, firepin, handguard............?

 

[geo]

Diemaco / Colt Canada is a division of Colt Defense weapons systems of the US.
Of course they contract out what they don't make in one of their various plants.

 

[starseed]

.........and UK SF.

I would be loathe to draw conclusions from that. The SAS has a hard-on for being different; they most definitely buy into the "special" forces label

 

[1feral1]

The UK SF community does use Colt Canada weapons. Its known as the 5.56mm L119A1 SFW, NSN 1005 21 920 6546. The contract commenced in 2000.  The Diemaco decison was taken after the C7 outperformed its competitors, which included the SIG 500, and HK G36.

The L119A1 SFW has been extensively used in Afghanistan, and in Iraq by UK SF, with one British officer saying 'these Diemaco wepaons functioned as advertised'.

References available if so requested.

OWDU