• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

TASER OPINIONS?

Status
Not open for further replies.

pbi

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
0
Points
0
The recent fatal incident at Vancouver Airport has certainly ignited some controversy about the use of the taser by Cdn LEAs, not to mention about the details of the incident itself. We seem to be seeing a division into two camps: those questioning the use of the taser and calling for inquiry, further restrictions, banning, etc; and those (mostly on the LEA side) standing up for continued use.

In the midst of all this, the Chief of the Kingston Police Service has come out with a very interesting public commentary that recently appeared in the Whig-Standard. The KPS has around twenty tasers, but they can only be deployed by the tactical teams or by supervisors. One individual has died after being tasered by the KPS, although the death was eventually attributed to other causes.  Be careful not to dismiss the KPS as a "hick-town po-leese dee-part-mint" that has nothing to do: there are seven federal penitentiaries in or near the city, a considerable undesirable and s***t bird population in certain areas, and an active drug world. Kingston is very far from its red brick and limestone tourism image, let me assure you, and its police officers are not chasing stray cows.

Anyway, the Chief strongly suggests that there is disinformation being circulated about the taser. He seems to point the finger at the manufacturers and some LEAs. His points are:

a) there is not much "candidness" (his word)  about how often and how tasers are used, so that its use is misunderstood; and

b) the taser is perhaps not being used as a "deescalation" of force at all: instead it is being used unnecessarily, when lesser force such as spray, sticks, or restraining holds might have been used. The Chief suggests that there is a false representation that  tasers are used instead of  firearms (i.e. as risk reduction) when in fact in many taser incidents firearms normally never would have been drawn, and other lesser methods with much less risks would have been used.

I'd be interested in knowing what our LEA members (Zipperhead Cop, etc) think about this.

Cheers
 

Bruce Monkhouse

Army.ca Myth
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Reaction score
402
Points
1,010
pbi said:
b) the taser is perhaps not being used as a "deescalation" of force at all: instead it is being used unnecessarily, when lesser force such as spray, sticks, or restraining holds might have been used. The Chief suggests that there is a false representation that  tasers are used instead of  firearms (i.e. as risk reduction) when in fact in many taser incidents firearms normally never would have been drawn, and other lesser methods with much less risks would have been used.

Having been on the receiving end many times of all three [Redman suit doesn't always protect all places :crybaby:] of those techniques, I think the chief is extremely wrong in his opinion of the force continuum.

"Spray, sticks, or restraining holds" will generally require medical attention 100% of the time if the "subject" is truly interested in not being put into custody. The Taser, no matter how unpleasant it is for the few seconds, left me wide awake and ready for 'shipment' in no time at all.

In my perfect world the taser would be the third step after 1. Officer presence, 2. Tactical communication.
 

Shamrock

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
0
Points
0
As above, I've been on the receiving end of spray and Taser.

Although spray hurt considerably more, as a determined person, I could see myself working through it.  Taser robbed me of ability if not determination.  Taser also has the added bonus of stopping immediately, making it an effective negative reinforcer.  I also think the crackle of a Taser is more intimidating than a spray can or a baton.
 

axeman

Full Member
Reaction score
0
Points
0
  sure theres a crack and the person goes down  but more and more we are seeing the general health of the nation of the country go down in a spiral. so at what point re we going to re-evaluate what 50K of voltage can do to a person . theres a small percentage of ppl that this ca n kill right away . theres a way smaller percentage  that will have respitory problems after OC spray . tasers they KNOW can KILL someone .  IMO tasers should be removed from the arsenals of the various law enfocement  departments . i belive they are a lazy persons way out . shoot em and let the officers swarm this person . now that the way its being used is falling under suspicion maybe a rethink is required.with OC they generaly have to think about what they are doing not so with a Taser. Maybe if the RCMP in YVR would of thought the big debate would not take place but we have now got to deal with yet another fact placed on the table. any way i degress . AFTER doing research online with emed professionals the taser isnt listed as a cause of death its listed as a FACTOR  of death. "the fall didnt kill the person  the way his skull colapsed on his brain was a factor in his death ,.the way his heart wascrushed by the ribcagethat was a factor in his death ETC . you can bury the basic facts but the facts are that this is not a safe alternative to a real bullet.
 

krustyrl

Full Member
Reaction score
0
Points
0
I 'm really puzzled on the whole BC situation re: the Taser incident.  I just have this feeling as most haved jumped on the victims bandwagon, I personally need to hear the LEA side, also.  There is probably copious info not yet released that may somewhat justify LEA actions.
Don't get me wrong, I feel for the families loss but the actions of throwing a table thru a window and the yelling signals distress in the person that we still don't know why, did he suffer from a mental stste possibly.?

Anyone else feel this way.?

The radio talk show on CJBQ (Belleville) had the host ready to throw the RCMP involved in the clink for overuse of force.
 

Armymedic

Army.ca Veteran
Mentor
Reaction score
0
Points
0
I am in favour of the use of Tasers and a non lethal force weapon.

But as a medical professional, I want to know why they cause certian people to die?

Why is it safe enough for thosands of police officers to be tased in tng, but not for certian others?
 

garb811

Army.ca Veteran
Staff member
Directing Staff
Reaction score
6
Points
530
A couple of points with the caveat that I've never received, although I did see a few happen on a Use of Force course with the RCMP, and we do not carry it.

Back when OC spray was being widely introduced, there was much press about the number of deaths being caused by its use (ie. this Australian Parliamentary research note from 2002 states 60 deaths in the US had been attributed to its use up until the time of its writing:  Capsicum Spray-The Record to Date) and the same research note states Amnesty International condemned its use against peaceful protesters as "...tanamount to torture...".  When was the last time an OC related death hit the news?

The tsk-tsking of the many who say this should have been done or that should have been done because "in the old days" a cop wouldn't have resorted to using a taser remind me of the old MPs who never thought we should have received intermediate weapons, a weapon we can carry with one up the spout and body armour and resisted it every step of the way because they got along just fine without any of that.  What they neglect to mention is that in the good ol' days, many a LEO and more suspects ended up injured as a result of there being no option except getting in there and duking it out when the arrest needed to be made and there was a good chance buddy would have fallen down a flight or two of stairs on the way to the holding cell if they rubbed the copper the wrong way or got a good shot or two in before he was subdued.

People need to get through their heads that intermediate weapons CAN KILL!  OC Spray CAN KILL and cause serious, permanent damage to various parts of the body.  A baton CAN KILL if the strike is to a red zone (intentional or not) and cause permanent, debilitating injuries.  Handcuffing CAN KILL if a person suffers from certain conditions and you end up laying them in the wrong position, hard hands CAN KILL (as Chuck Norris knows).  There is no method available which will result in submission injury free to all parties involved 100% of the time.  The taser is a good thing IMHO as it essentially takes away the need for a "pile on" and the danger of injury that entails.

I think what is seriously missing from this debate witch hunt is the fact that out of every deployment of a taser where something went wrong and someone ended up dieing, "xxx" number of other deployments resulted in the person subdued with no lasting, physical, effects.  Whether or not the deployment was justified in this instance I'm not going to wade in on as the only people who know the training received in its use are those involved and their Use of Force instructor.
 

JBP

Sr. Member
Reaction score
0
Points
0
I'm all for the Taser, especially because it's a safer option for the police as well. They don't have to get too close to you that way, especially if a subject has something like a knife! Also, if you're on the recieving end of a Taser, it's probably for a reason and you're an idiot, or for the time being, at least an idiot...

If people don't want to get Tasered, don't be a tool and get yourself into that level of trouble!
::)
 

Long in the tooth

Full Member
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Tasers on Stun; Shoot to Kill Shoot to Kill

4 Charges of Murder, please.

The disconnect between the video (thank God) and the RCMP spin is just breathtaking.

And no, cops should not investigate cops.

If 4 healthy, young and well trained officers can't subdue a middle aged man then perhaps Regina should be disbanded.  Today.
 

Mike Baker

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Well, I will have to go with Bruce on this. If things done to calm down the person goes sour after 2-3 tries, sure, use the taser. But, there are other methods that do work, like Bruce said. They are a very valuable piece of equipment that our Officers have, and I for one don't want them to stop using them. They are much better to use, then having to kill a person because there was no other viable option.

St. Micheals Medical Team said:
But as a medical professional, I want to know why they cause certian people to die?
That is the main question of it all, in my opinion, and I hope that we can get the answer some time soon.
 
Reaction score
0
Points
0
I got tased last week and didn't die, shit happens look at all the lives the taser saves by giving options other than lethal force.
 

garb811

Army.ca Veteran
Staff member
Directing Staff
Reaction score
6
Points
530
Otto Fest said:
4 Charges of Murder, please.

And that there is a huge part of the problem.  1 member deployed the taser, why are you calling for 4 charges of murder?!
 

muskrat89

Army.ca Veteran
Staff member
Directing Staff
Reaction score
0
Points
0
.. and we hate it when non-soldiers pick apart our actions. Priceless.

::)
 

medaid

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Otto Fest said:
If 4 healthy, young and well trained officers can't subdue a middle aged man then perhaps Regina should be disbanded.  Today.


My partner and I, plus 3 other members (2 from a different departments) had trouble holding down a suspect that was maybe a tad taller then I was. Does this mean we all failed Use of Force training? Because of this, my partner and the other members should have been failures at the respective academies?

To echo some others on here, I'd prefer the alternative to getting OC'd, but not the PDB... that thing really really really smarts!
 

observor 69

Army.ca Veteran
Subscriber
Reaction score
3
Points
430
http://tinyurl.com/yt43r5

Globe & Mail

RCMP falsehoods on Dziekanski's death

 
Saturday, November 17, 2007 – Page A28

Canadians cannot believe a word the RCMP have to say over the taser death of Robert Dziekanski. The cruelty of the response by four Mounties to the Polish man's plight is a shocking example of police inhumanity. The disinformation campaign waged later can only further harm the reputation and credibility of the force. How, when an RCMP spokesman stands up in the future and calmly gives a version of events involving a member, can he be trusted?

What is clear is that in the aftermath of the Oct. 14 tasering at Vancouver International Airport, RCMP spokesman Sgt. Pierre Lemaitre provided a version of events to the public that contrasts sharply with what was captured on the now world-famous taser death video.

Witnesses said Mr. Dziekanski wasn't a threat to anybody, but Sgt. Lemaitre told CBC Television that police arrived and, despite efforts to calm him, were met aggressively and confrontationally by Mr. Dziekanski. "The officers were using gestures saying, you know, relax, relax, put your hands on the desk there where the computer was taken; to no avail, [he was] still throwing things around," said Sgt. Lemaitre.

He gave a similar account to the Vancouver Sun: "The officers tried to speak to him, tried to calm him down, but he continued to throw things around and yell and scream." The police spokesman also told a CTV reporter that "he was pounding on the windows behind us, he was throwing chairs."

The video shows Mr. Dziekanski rearranging furniture, and throwing something earlier on, but not as the four officers approached him. Instead, he raised his hands and moved away a few steps. He gave the appearance not of posing a threat but of exhibiting resignation. There is no evidence on the video of any attempt to negotiate with the man, or to calm him in the few seconds before he was hit with 50,000 volts.

The first taser blow left him immediately convulsed and screaming on the floor. Sgt. Lemaitre's claim that the taser "didn't seem to have any kind of effect on him" is laughable. The officer also said that "even after the handcuffs, he continued to fight." That is the RCMP's stated justification for tasering Mr. Dziekanski again, and putting pressure on what Sgt. Lemaitre claimed was his "shoulders." The video shows Mr. Dziekanski writhing, not fighting, before he was hit again with the taser, and reveals that pressure was placed not on his shoulders but on his neck, with a knee.

Without the video, shot by Paul Pritchard, it would have been the word of four Mounties against those of a few civilian witnesses. Now, the entire world knows how the RCMP callously misread the situation and brutally dispatched a distressed and exhausted man from Poland.

A charitable interpretation of the statements made by Sgt. Lemaitre would be that he did not have all the information, or was himself duped by officers involved in Mr. Dziekanski's killing. Then again, it may be that Sgt. Lemaitre was complicit in an attempt to whitewash the affair. Only the RCMP know the truth. Don't expect a straight answer


 

karl28

Sr. Member
Reaction score
0
Points
0
             While I feel for the Victim of this I dont blame the officer  they chose the best action that they thought at the time would due the least amount of harm .    How was the Police officer to know that the Tazer would kill this man ?        I think the airport staff and management  it's self should bare the brunt of blame for  this  incident  .  I believe that  CTV stated the man had been in the Airport for 10 hours and was agitated cause he couldn't communicate with any one   .   Well that's a no brainer I would be ticked to  especially  after a long flight. Why did they keep him there that long and why  didn't the airport staff and management  due more for this Victim ?   IF this had been adressed in the first place  and the Victim be allowed to carry on about his business this  whole event probably wouldn't of happend  .    I blame the Airport staff and Management not the police .
 

Long in the tooth

Full Member
Reaction score
0
Points
0
I have no doubt that this will be swept under the carpet as usual; as for the 4 charges of murder, up to 3 (that's three) tasers are alleged to have been fired.  Permission was asked and granted to use the taser and this will dilute the responsiblity further.  Being a member of the military I was unfairly called a 'baby killer'.  The RCMP can now be called murderers.

The video speaks for itself.
 

eurowing

Full Member
Reaction score
0
Points
0
We also have no idea what info the RCMP had as they walked in.  Were they told he had been there for 10 hrs? Or were they just called in and had little info to go on?

Sadly, I believe that armchair quarterbacks are going to turn prospective members away. Why would anyone want to be a policeman in this kind of climate?  And we wonder why the RCMP has trouble recruiting?

Sheesh.

To the media.  STFU, wait for the inquest.

Yes, I have sympathy for the man that died, but as I say, let the inquest sort it out.
 

Roy Harding

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Otto Fest said:
I have no doubt that this will be swept under the carpet as usual; as for the 4 charges of murder, up to 3 (that's three) tasers are alleged to have been fired.  Permission was asked and granted to use the taser and this will dilute the responsiblity further.  Being a member of the military I was unfairly called a 'baby killer'.  The RCMP can now be called murderers.

The video speaks for itself.

And calling the RCMP "murderers" is fair?

Because you (and I) were given an untrue and unfair label in the past it's now OK somehow for us to do the same to the RCMP?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top