I believe, and it was a long time ago, that punishments appeared in Part II orders. This was to "gazette" the action and to authorize, for example, the pay office to deduct the fine. As Edward said, it was simple and effective, so it had no place in the emerging CF centralized administrative system. Other "stuff" that appeared in Part II orders included marriages, promotions, granting of PMQs, upgrades in trade groups, in short, anything that would effect one's pay and allowances.
Soldiers accused of stealing from fellow CF members
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Blackadder1916
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From an old (from the 1940s) pub that is on my library shelf, there is this explanation of Part I and Part II Orders.
There was some carryover (at least in partition/title) to the "Routine Orders" procedures of CFAO 4-8 and the superceding DAOD 1000-2.
At least from my recollection of the 1970s, there did seem to be a pattern of including in "Routine Orders - Part 2" many of the items that would have been in "Part II Orders", but this pattern had pretty much disappeared by the 1990s.
There was some carryover (at least in partition/title) to the "Routine Orders" procedures of CFAO 4-8 and the superceding DAOD 1000-2.
At least from my recollection of the 1970s, there did seem to be a pattern of including in "Routine Orders - Part 2" many of the items that would have been in "Part II Orders", but this pattern had pretty much disappeared by the 1990s.
OldSolduer
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In the early 90s, a soldier was caught stealing from another. He was apprehended and fell down the stairs. He either couldn't or wouldn't identify who took him into custody.
He was released within a month.
A few years later, a Sergeant was charged (can't remember the charge) as it was contended that he "ordered" his soldiers to "sort him out". His soldiers gave the slow one a blanket party. He was found not guilty.
My point here is that blanket parties are unacceptable and should be discouraged.
He was released within a month.
A few years later, a Sergeant was charged (can't remember the charge) as it was contended that he "ordered" his soldiers to "sort him out". His soldiers gave the slow one a blanket party. He was found not guilty.
My point here is that blanket parties are unacceptable and should be discouraged.
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Why is it that every time a thread gets started, about someone being charged, we have to go through the same boring exercise over and over again?
Someone will suggest back alley justice (which we don't speak of here) get chastised, then the stories start and then someone will post about old vs. new military.
Some crusty MWO sorts everyone out and usually that's where it ends.
Someone will suggest back alley justice (which we don't speak of here) get chastised, then the stories start and then someone will post about old vs. new military.
Some crusty MWO sorts everyone out and usually that's where it ends.
OldSolduer
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:deadhorse:
Sir, one x crusty MWO guilty as charged!!
Sir, one x crusty MWO guilty as charged!!
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There is no horse to dead not to flog.
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Oldgateboatdriver said:Could not agree more, Jim. I did not propose that with dispense with proper military trial.
But the "seen to be done" part is where, in the Navy, it was customary to hold the type of parade I mention. It's a leftover from the old days of sail when the whole ship's company was mustered amidships to witness any punishment meted out under the Articles of War.
I recall having to attend at least one of those parades at the Dockyard, in Esquimalt as a young seaman, when a Leading Seaman was so marched off to Edmonton after being found guilty of possession of narcotics. I can tell you that it makes a strong impression on a young member of the military such as I was then.
AS for the "locker box padlock" thing, ERC, I cannot comment on army matters, but I can tell you that I have never locked my cabin or even my locker in my cabin on any ship I served on. It has been pointed out to me from time to time but I have always answered that I would quit the Navy the day I felt I needed to lock it up. I have not had to quit
Army, Navy, Air Force all have personnel that represent a cross section of Canadian society. Unfortunately there are people who steal despite being held to high standards. Being on small ships for the last 18 years, I have witnessed instances where people had things stolen from lockers, wallets etc and I have been on the receiving end a couple of times. I suspect some were by civy workers but some were from shipmates. In my opinion open lockers are inviting thievery and when I did evening rounds with the XO we picked up people with unlocked lockers.
Things have changed somewhat from they once they were and not always for the good.
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Jim Seggie said:
I see we studied at the same school. 8)
I used to routinely use the biggest mouths in the company and/or someone who looked like he/she may be going down the wrong pathtehmselves. Being the escort often gave him (her) and idea of what their potential future would be if they diddn't start changing their attitude/ways. both simple but effectives tools in minimizing crimes and other assorted shortcomings in the first place.
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Danjanou said:
Sage advice that was given to me many years ago....hey wait a minute, now I remember where I know you from!
dileas
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Springroll said:They should have kept this tight lipped and dealt with them they way they should be dealt with....
You know, accidents happen all the time >
I see you're back, but haven't moved forward. :
This crusty old CSM would charge the ass of anyone who caused any accidents; sadly, those would be the young troops these days - despite their bitching about us crusty old members. Ironic that.
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ArmyVern said:I see you're back, but haven't moved forward. :
This crusty old CSM would charge the ass of anyone who caused any accidents; sadly, those would be the young troops these days - despite their bitching about us crusty old members. Ironic that.
:+1:
And this old, retired colonel would have done the same ... and the punishment awarded to the 'vigilante' would have been, at least, equal to that awarded to the thief: detention, enough to require a superior commander's sign off.
And any of you young, inexperienced troops who think Army Vern, Jim Seggie and I are exceptions: go ahead and try it; I am 99% certain you will find that 99% of senior NCOs and senior officers think exactly like us.
Springroll (and like minded others): way back when, when I heard a NCM say things like that I made a mental note: "not ready for advancement." I trained a few of the people who are in command now; they probably think now, like I did back then.
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I would like to add that I had added the > as a note that I was far from being serious when I made my comment. I do not condone vigilante justice and would sooner have the higher ups deal with that stuff then watch my buddies get in trouble for handling it themselves.
For future reference, I will ensure that I am very clear and concise in what I am trying to state rather than making a smart a** comment like I did.
as a note that I was far from being serious when I made my comment. I do not condone vigilante justice and would sooner have the higher ups deal with that stuff then watch my buddies get in trouble for handling it themselves. For future reference, I will ensure that I am very clear and concise in what I am trying to state rather than making a smart a** comment like I did.
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Early in my career as a MS I utilized 'vigilante justice' on a subordinate (nothing too serious). I think of that incident every day and know of a million ways the situation could have been diffused in a better way. As luck would have it, the individual on the receiving end became a close friend and even though he has been retired for 4 years, we are still best friends....I consider myself EXTREMELY fortunate.
Bottom line-It should never be an option...no matter how mad you may be.
Bottom line-It should never be an option...no matter how mad you may be.
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The Modern Charge Process (Current as of 2 weeks ago):
-Charge outcomes are still published in the ROs ( to include rank, name, offense, and charge outcome)
-All available unit personnel attend the orders parade to both quell the rumour mill and to act as a deterrent.
-Escorts are still loudmouths, souls that need deterrence or both.
As it has been said before, the "old army" way of doing things is has no place. Period. It even sounds as though the old way is still the new way. Charge, Summary trial, Consequences, Deterrence for others. Seems legit to me
-Charge outcomes are still published in the ROs ( to include rank, name, offense, and charge outcome)
-All available unit personnel attend the orders parade to both quell the rumour mill and to act as a deterrent.
-Escorts are still loudmouths, souls that need deterrence or both.
As it has been said before, the "old army" way of doing things is has no place. Period. It even sounds as though the old way is still the new way. Charge, Summary trial, Consequences, Deterrence for others. Seems legit to me
Bzzliteyr
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mrc_wannabe: Wow, that looks totally different from what I was involved in two months (almost to the day) ago.
As someone who just finished the summary trial (Court martial charges were dropped and I innocently elected summary trial when the charges were re-laid) process and found guilty, I would think that having been brought in front of the regiment and stripped from Sgt to Cpl would have been an immensely traumatizing incident and might have resulted with me releasing from the forces.
Seeing as procedural errors were (allegedly) done during my trial, and the outcome was so seriously flawed (in my opinion and that of my lawyer) that there is a "request for review" in at this moment, I question how it would be dealt with if the review was positive and my rank returned? Would the regiment have another parade to admit their mistake out loud therefore losing credibility? How would they redeem the Sgt that for the past two months has been running around as a corporal duty driver? The credibility is lost now, that old school tactic would not be effective these days.
On a side note, I was punished, my punishment was issued as a "deterrent". I recently spoke to my ex-CO about that exact point: how can it be a deterrent if no one in the regiment knows what I did? Aside from rumours or my version of events, nobody has any details of what I did to deserve the punishment. What's funny though is that most people are absolutely sure I must have killed or seriously injured someone to deserve such a sentence.
My two cents.
As someone who just finished the summary trial (Court martial charges were dropped and I innocently elected summary trial when the charges were re-laid) process and found guilty, I would think that having been brought in front of the regiment and stripped from Sgt to Cpl would have been an immensely traumatizing incident and might have resulted with me releasing from the forces.
Seeing as procedural errors were (allegedly) done during my trial, and the outcome was so seriously flawed (in my opinion and that of my lawyer) that there is a "request for review" in at this moment, I question how it would be dealt with if the review was positive and my rank returned? Would the regiment have another parade to admit their mistake out loud therefore losing credibility? How would they redeem the Sgt that for the past two months has been running around as a corporal duty driver? The credibility is lost now, that old school tactic would not be effective these days.
On a side note, I was punished, my punishment was issued as a "deterrent". I recently spoke to my ex-CO about that exact point: how can it be a deterrent if no one in the regiment knows what I did? Aside from rumours or my version of events, nobody has any details of what I did to deserve the punishment. What's funny though is that most people are absolutely sure I must have killed or seriously injured someone to deserve such a sentence.
My two cents.
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john10 said:
Summary Trials are seldom done in front of anyone except those involved.
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recceguy said:
Odd, every unit I have a been a part of they have been attended by "a majority of unit pers, unless tasked otherwise."
Maybe my experiences are the exception to the rule? ???
Bzzltyr:
Firstly, that really sucks and I'm sorry you were hanged in spite of procedural errors. Secondly, I am not stating the system is perfect however I was stating to those that were calling for blood in the OP that the "old way" of dealing with things is actually how the "new army" deals with issues (with experiences from E.R Campbell, and Jim Seggie).
I can only speak to my personal experiences which don't involved being hat-less at any point in my career. This is mostly because the deterrence factor was shown to me as a young Private watching a Sgt I respected getting knocked down to Private and carted off to Edmo for embezzling Crown money. Justice and the administration of it are something that can be debated and has been debated for eons.
I hope that it further explains my earlier post.
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