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Short-service Army

SeaKingTacco said:
It is the standard thing to trot out when someone thinks there is something wrong with the CF "we have to fix NDHQ!".   Fine.   How?  
We could start by shutting down the manned but unfunded project offices. Start manning project offices when funds are allocated. That way we could rotate people in and out of NDHQ by reallocating resources from one project office to another, and reduce the number of staff.
 
As well, I've heard a good suggestion to limit "tours" to NDHQ at 3 out of every 5 years and 5 out of every 10 - something like this would help to get a little fresh air into the place.
 
I too find it odd that he would compare Canada's military to India's military, especially considering the huge difference in terms of both situation and capabilities.

Do you think you'd find a small platoon of highly trained, highly equipped Indian soldiers sneaking their way down the side of a mountain in Afghanistan, wearing night vision goggles and being under the protective umbrella of LAV 3s and Coyotes?  Or vehicles with similar capabilities?  Not really. Sure, you could field a larger Army, and military in general with the $13B in the DND budget - but not if your going after the outstanding quality our forces possess.  Sure, DND wastes a fair share of money, but the CF/DND still manage to produce world class forces in terms of professionalism and equipment...can anybody say the same for India?

Cheers
 
We could start by shutting down the manned but unfunded project offices. Start manning project offices when funds are allocated. That way we could rotate people in and out of NDHQ by reallocating resources from one project office to another, and reduce the number of staff

Fair enough, but who does the paperwork writing the Statement of Requirement (SOR)?   That is all done before money is allocated- otherwise you don't know what piece of kit you are going to buy (or what capability) at what price.   For example, the MHP SOR runs several hundred pages...

Procurement definitely needs to get faster in the CF, but I'm not convinced allocating staff to a project after a billion or so is allocated to the project is the right way to go.
 
Maybe we need more control over those project offices. For example: in 1993, the then CLS visited us in Petawawa and gave us the opportunity to ask questions. Someone inquired about the (still to be determined) new helmet, because we had tried it on for size in 1988, and had heard nothing since... he told us they were still looking for the perfect helmet... The CLS told us he had asked the PMO what was so special about the CDN head that they couldn't find a helmet that filled our requirement. We finally received our helmets a few years later (a total of 9 years after we tried it on for size... imagine if the CLS had not put pressure on this ???).
What I'm trying to say is that some people build careers around those offices. By opening PMOs in due time for proper planning, and then supervising them properly to avoid them dragging their feet, we could probably be more effective with less staff. This way we could likely get the JSS in less than 10 years...
 
I don't know if this would exactly "fix" NDHQ, but how about separating the military from the civilian side? Set up a Cdn Forces Headquarters AND a Department of National Defence, like the Yanks have a Pentagon and a DoD ...
A lot of the excess fat in the system seems to be in the ADMs offices as opposed to the CF, for instance there are (I'm told) 23 "Level Ones" in DND: that's Lt.-Gen./Vice-Adm. or Asst Deputy Minister level. Only seven of those are in uniform, the rest are bureaucrats. The CDS is a Level 0, or equivalent to the Depty Minister of National Defence.
It might not trim the baggage from our defence budget, but it would sure make it clear where the extra lard is concentrated. Only 42% of DND spending (operational and capital budgets) goes to the army, navy, air force and DCDS ....
 
Well I know that the water proof outer shell of my sleeping bag costs 200 bucks....maybe we could start with contractors using us to fund their retirements....
 
CBH99 said:
Sure, DND wastes a fair share of money, but the CF/DND still manage to produce world class forces in terms of professionalism and equipment...can anybody say the same for India?

Cheers

Well, I don't want to run the Indians down, since I have very little available information on their capabilities.   After all, their army fights continual small unit actions in the mountains of the Kashmir, and the Mirage 2000's, MiG-21s and Su-30s of the Indian Air Force did manage to defeat the USAF's F-15Cs in the majority of the scenarios (I've heard close to 90% from some sources) in the recent Ex Cope India.    :dontpanic:

The point is more that their strategic situation is dramatically different.   Their army is geared to defend their borders from very real threats (China, Pakistan), they have a large (huge!) population with low wages compared to Canada, and they do in fact spend a fair bit more than we do on defence.   It's not really a useful comparison.

Australia is a much closer match.

 
I wonder if the initial idea was to create some sort of "surge" capability; a core of professionals to do the planning and training and the ability to augment the forces with "short timers" when you really needed more than the one battlegroup out in the field. (Maybe I am indulging in some wishful thinking as well).

This could be done through a number of different methods. The YTEP program could be revived, giving recruits a one year contract so they could decide if they liked the army wanted to extend without costing us a fortune; lots more manning and training dollars could flow to the reserve to bring their numbers up to par with the regular force as a minimum (they only cost more when they go on tour), the supplimentry reserve could be tapped to stand up Special Service Force companies or battalions when required....



 
Sgt Majoor-good to see you here! How is your literary career coming on?

I wasn't going to say any more about this subject (my blood pressure will only take so much...) but suffice it to say that the concept being proposed by Dr English is utterly unsuited for a professional and expeditionary Army, which we are and have been since at least WWI, if not the SA War. It is a concept suited to home-defense armies, which we are not and never really have been, all the recent prattle about "Homeland Defense" to the contrary. Cheers.



 
I have read and re-read Jack English's article and, like many here, I cannot quite figure out where he went off the rails.   (Caveat lector: I know Jack English fairly well, we served together/nearby in staff appointments about 30 years ago; I guess we might call ourselves distant friends; I might be biased.)

The army he appears to 'want' is the one we had in WWII â “ raised in haste, poorly trained in Canada and then, while waiting for a year or two or even three (for the 1st Division) properly trained and re-trained at battle schools which were the next best thing to combat.    The cadres in the battle schools were the best the British had â “ (recent) battle hardened officers and NCOs with reputations as 'quick' thinkers and doers.   That army, eventually, acquitted itself admirably in battle.   English's thesis, with which I agree, is that we did well despite having generated only a very few first rate senior leaders in World War II: all young men with only limited prewar military service.   Most of the Canadian senior leadership, the admirals and generals from the 'regular' navy and army were, at best, second rate â “ many were worse.

I think English sees, in our turn of the century forces, a repeat of 1938 â “ an old, decrepit, ill equipped, poorly led army; good young men (and women, now) to be sure, but a force which is not prepared to fight at anything above company level.

It seems to me, from afar (a great distance in time) I hasten to point out, that we do have too much deadwood scattered throughout the armed forces in every rank from corporal through to general.   I argued, many years ago, that we were drifting away from a vocational model of soldiering to an occupational one ... soldiering was, I feared twenty-five years ago, becoming a job, rather like being a bus driver.   It was the old 1950s/60s recruiting slogan, â Å“A career with a futureâ ? taken to extremes.   I felt then that we placed far, far too much emphasis on the (legitimate) recruiting, training and retention needs of the technical support trades and too little on the needs of the army's combat arms and the navy's 'hard' sea trades â “ many of which are very technical.   I was concerned then that our personnel 'business plan' was excluding too many people from small towns and, especially, aboriginal communities; our (commendable) desire to reduce the costs of training and to be more inclusive had unintended consequences â “ consequences which I believed and argued, way back when, were detrimental to the army's long term operational needs.

I believe, still, that we need a young army.   I do not mind having a few 60 year old generals but I doubt that anyone from brigade commander on down should be or needs to be too much over 40.*   It was my firm belief then â “ and I have read, heard, or seen nothing to change my mind, that an officer is ready to command a ship, regiment, battalion or fighter/bomber squadron after about 10 to 15 years of commissioned service in peacetime â “ at the age, for most, of about 35.   I believed then and still do that a young man can be ready to command a tank or a rifle section after about two years of good hard training and experience, and that a platoon/troop 2IC (sergeant) should be about 30 â “ with about ten years of experience.

I think that Jack English wants a young, fit, decidedly operationally oriented army.   Such an army might want to start with a series of two or three year enlistments, each requiring some 'up or out' performance by individuals, so that we have a quality sieve which allows the best and brightest to be retained and moved up through the ranks â “ getting the best officers and NCOs to lead the young, short service rank and file.

----------

* Shades of JFC Fuller's wonderful little diatribe: Generalship: Its Diseases and Their Cure, which he wrote back in the '30s; see: http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/Fuller/Fuller.asp

 
Welcome aboard Rusty.  Good post, it certainly helps to develop the debate; but I remain unconvinced that killing professionalism is a way to eliminate careerism (which I gathered was the true intent of Mr English's proposal).

The army he appears to 'want' is the one we had in WWII â “ raised in haste, poorly trained in Canada and then, while waiting for a year or two or even three (for the 1st Division) properly trained and re-trained at battle schools which were the next best thing to combat.   The cadres in the battle schools were the best the British had â “ (recent) battle hardened officers and NCOs with reputations as 'quick' thinkers and doers.  That army, eventually, acquitted itself admirably in battle.  English's thesis, with which I agree, is that we did well despite having generated only a very few first rate senior leaders in World War II: all young men with only limited prewar military service.  Most of the Canadian senior leadership, the admirals and generals from the 'regular' navy and army were, at best, second rate â “ many were worse.

Sure, but I don't think the nature of today's "come-as-you-are" wars will give us the opportunity to be properly trained for a year or two while waiting for the "Second Front" to be reestablished.  As an expeditionary force, we need to have professionals, ready and trained to fight, on hand to be dispatched to the "conflict of the week" if directed by our civilian leaders.

I think English sees, in our turn of the century forces, a repeat of 1938 â “ an old, decrepit, ill equipped, poorly led army; good young men (and women, now) to be sure, but a force which is not prepared to fight at anything above company level.

Ok, in many respects sure.  But I think there is one important caveat.  Our current leadership (both Officer and NCO) has seen non-stop deployment since the end of the Cold War.  Due to overstretch and small resources, there are definite negative aspects of this; however, we cannot ignore the fact that our leadership has an amazing degree of operational experience - some guys have 6 - 8 different tours under their belts.  Granted, none of this has been high-density manoeuvre operations in the face of an organized enemy, but it is still operational experience in a hostile environment (in many circumstances a two-way shooting range).

As opposed to 1938, when we had leadership that promoted amateurism (McNaughton, Crerar) and rested on the laurels of what they did 20 years prior on the Western Front, today's leadership has had constant exposure to the ever changing phenomenon of modern conflict.  As opposed to suffering from the abject amateurism of the 1920's and 30's (and to an extent, 40's), we've got commanders who have commanded troops at various levels in a variety of operational settings.

Sure, we are facing the same problem with underfunding for equipment and training as we did in the 1930's, but I think our leadership is eons ahead in terms of professional experience.  If given the ability to do so, I think our leadership would be more then capable of getting a grip on preparing to fight; the fact that we had a senior officer as 2ic of a formation in Iraq or that we have Officers in American HQs in Afghanistan is a testament to this.

It seems to me, from afar (a great distance in time) I hasten to point out, that we do have too much deadwood scattered throughout the armed forces in every rank from corporal through to general.  I argued, many years ago, that we were drifting away from a vocational model of soldiering to an occupational one ... soldiering was, I feared twenty-five years ago, becoming a job, rather like being a bus driver.  It was the old 1950s/60s recruiting slogan, â Å“A career with a futureâ ? taken to extremes.  I felt then that we placed far, far too much emphasis on the (legitimate) recruiting, training and retention needs of the technical support trades and too little on the needs of the army's combat arms and the navy's 'hard' sea trades â “ many of which are very technical.  I was concerned then that our personnel 'business plan' was excluding too many people from small towns and, especially, aboriginal communities; our (commendable) desire to reduce the costs of training and to be more inclusive had unintended consequences â “ consequences which I believed and argued, way back when, were detrimental to the army's long term operational needs.

I'll agree with this to a certain extent.  Although it is purely semantics, I'd say the movement is from a professional model of soldiering based upon productive output of combat power to an (inefficent and undesirable) occupational model which is based upon functional administration of peacetime management.  In essence we may tend to look inwards when to role of the military demands it looks outwards to be properly prepared to fight.   As well, I wouldn't say this movement is monolithic; different areas of the Forces are experiencing it to different degrees.

I think this may provide a framework with which to work out a better solution then eliminating the notion of professionalism grounded upon time/experience.  Using the basis of a professional model based upon productive output of combat power, promotion and accession should be based upon merit alone.  For senior leaders, this would depend upon a balanced assessment of both command in the field and staff duties.

The purpose of further emphasising merit is to eliminate "the driftwood" as efficiently as possible (Driftwood does not mean someone who has no desire to seek higher positions, but rather is professionally incapable of contributing to the output of combat power).  A combination of objective and subjective evaluation for leaders will be used to determine merit; some of the methods that could be utilized would be:
- results of free-play, force-on-force exercises (can the commander successfully do his job at his level without getting his soldiers wiped out?)
- examinations for promotion (why we got rid of rank examinations, I'll never know)
- character evaluation reports (a modified PER which, rather then relying on checked boxes, is a written evaluation of character with input for superiors, peers, and subordinates).

Whatever the system for promotion and accession is, it has to be focused on the outward-looking objective of producing combat power.  This should help to eliminate careerism to a great extent as focus is not internalized at "how can I make myself look good" but rather externalized at "how can I improve upon the performance of this unit".

I believe, still, that we need a young army.  I do not mind having a few 60 year old generals but I doubt that anyone from brigade commander on down should be or needs to be too much over 40.*  It was my firm belief then â “ and I have read, heard, or seen nothing to change my mind, that an officer is ready to command a ship, regiment, battalion or fighter/bomber squadron after about 10 to 15 years of commissioned service in peacetime â “ at the age, for most, of about 35.  I believed then and still do that a young man can be ready to command a tank or a rifle section after about two years of good hard training and experience, and that a platoon/troop 2IC (sergeant) should be about 30 â “ with about ten years of experience.

I agree with you here as well.  Although there is nothing wrong with maintain personnel in positions for a period of time, I've argued before that it would good to promote faster.  The British Army seems to do well for itself and it promotes section 2ic's after 3 years and section commanders at 5-6.  The Militia does this as well (although out of necessity).

As well, I've also seen good ideas for a career structure which takes the best officers (determined on merit) out of the conventional career track and accelerates them faster then their peers.  It is in effect the peacetime effort to get the Gavins', the Simmonds', and the Rommels' to senior command at a much quicker pace.   Sure, jumping over their peers and superiors may conflict with our notions of fairness and a good career, but leadership and operational brilliance is an art - some are naturally good at it and some have no hope while many will be able to eventually do it competently if trained right.  As Von Balck said "Not every painter can be a Raphael or a Michelangelo."

I think that Jack English wants a young, fit, decidedly operationally oriented army.  Such an army might want to start with a series of two or three year enlistments, each requiring some 'up or out' performance by individuals, so that we have a quality sieve which allows the best and brightest to be retained and moved up through the ranks â “ getting the best officers and NCOs to lead the young, short service rank and file.

Most of my research and reading has led me to understand that their is no replacement for time/experience in the development of a professional soldier.  The Germans knew full well that they needed a certain amount of time to train a good commander or a decent staff officer; as a result, officer training was barely compromised in WWII, even when the manpower shortages began to be felt.  Unlike the American approach of filling TO&E spots which created an abundance of under-qualified Officers (distributed poorly amongst the various trades), the German's believed in having no officer rather then a poor one - the professional NCO Corps could step in if required.

As such, I believe that Canada, as primarily an expeditionary force, needs to have its core mostly composed of career professionals.  Like the legions of Rome, the state demands the abilities that only a professional force can offer, as the notion of the citizen-soldier, serving when needed, is insufficient to meet the security demands of the international arena.  I do believe there is a place for a certain percentage of "short-service" rank and file; these would be attracted by the Canadian version of the Montgomery GI Bill.  Attracted to a post-secondary education fund in return for three years of good service, this could help to "fill out the ranks" and expose many more Canadians to the Canadian Forces.  Those at the end of a Basic Engagement are free to leave with their (well earned) tuition, while those that wish to stay sign an Immediate engagement contract for another 22 years, for a full 25 year career.

As well, I will strongly debate your idea for an "up-or-out" system.  Most of the literature on the subject seems to indicate that the American experience with the up-or-out system is bad.  It is harmful to morale and, when combined with a poor promotion system (which is not focussed on merit) the process leads to significant increases in "careerism", something we are attempting to get rid of with this debate.

Anyways, welcome to Army.ca and good post,
Cheers,
Infanteer
 
The British Army seems to do well for itself and it promotes section 2ic's after 3 years and section commanders at 5-6.  The Militia does this as well (although out of necessity).

Hmmm.  When my CSM in the RGJ asked me if there were any fundamental differences between him and a Canadian CSM, I replied that in the Canadian system, he would still be learning to be a Pl 2ic.  He was 32 years old - and in their system, that is necessary, as it is impossible for an other rank to serve beyond 20 years - unless they commission from the ranks.

We have truly spectacular Sr NCOs - and a lot of that, IMHO is based on the balance that we have established between age and exerience.  Not sure that we should be messing with something that works very well.

Dave
 
A delicate balance; can you say that the quality of the British NCO Corps suffered for putting guys through faster?

32 seems a bit young for a CSM though.
 
Infanteer said:
A delicate balance; can you say that the quality of the British NCO Corps suffered for putting guys through faster?
32 seems a bit young for a CSM though.

I would take a Cdn NCO over his Brit counterpart sight unseen, because on the whole, IM not so HO, we produce better Sr NCOs.  In fact, having served with them, if I were to build a dream team, I would take some of their kit, most of their defence policies, and our Officers, NCOs and troops.
 
a_majoor said:
This could be done through a number of different methods. The YTEP program could be revived, giving recruits a one year contract so they could decide if they liked the army wanted to extend without costing us a fortune;

YTEP was an experimental program when it was rolled out in the early 1980's designed primarily to recruit young men and women from non-traditional regions with devastating high unemployment. I was one of the recruits in YTEP 1, and was asked to stay on. Many others were forced to remuster into other trades if they wanted to stay in. All in all, I believe 20-25 000 people went through the system in 3 years, and most stayed on for much longer. That gives you some idea of how hard it was to find a job in those days, and surely that is not the case in today's red hot job market, with the exception  of traditional regional disparities.

Does anybody have any primary source knowledge of how the YTEP model evolved over time, and how that program might be implemented today? In particular, it seems to me that the CF did not dream that program up over night, think of all the planning that must have went into making it happen, and could it be made to work again, and what kind of lead time would be required? 
 
Infanteer: your response to Rusty, once again, laid out most concisely and eloquently exactly what I felt, but  could not have expressed nearly so well as you. PPCLI Guy thanks for poking that sometimes irritating balloon of "Brit-o-philia" that occasionally gets a bit too big in our Army: we have a silly tendency to assume that other armies must automatically do everything better than we do. We are becoming masters of the self-putdown.

A couple of supporting fires:

Senior Officer Experience: Our more useless types nothwithstanding, we are now in the process of promoting some Snr Officers who have a number of operational tours behind them at different levels of command, on demanding and complex operations such as Kosovo, OEF, etc. We have in our CLS a man who has spent time as a Deputy Corps Commander in the US Army, as well being the Commander of ISAF (who was well respected by US allies). We have BGens such as BGen Beare who has just returned from mission command in the unique transitional environment of Bosnia 2004, and BGen Natynczyk who is embedded with US Army Forces in Iraq (along with several other Canadian officers) We send our officers and WOs/Senior NCOs as both students and instructors to the training and education centres of our major Allies, with almost universally good results. We are paying far more attention to training standards, to professionalism, and to issues such as ethics and ethos than I can ever recall in 30 years of service. I believe that these are positive trends that will lead us to better things as long as we are not too badly savaged by Treasury Board, and even then we will still go far to improve the human calibre of our leadership, which IMHO is what really matters anyway.

WO/Senior NCO Promotion: I do believe that we have drifted backwards on this one: I recall that when I took my Junior NCO course in 1975 (taught by P Coy/3 RCR), the Cpls and MCpls who taught us were IMHO far, far too old. By the time I joined the Regular Army in 1982, we had just begun to reverse this trend with DAPS, and IMHO in the following decade produced a good mix between youth/keenness and maturity/experience. However, I fear that we are starting to "age out" again in the Sgt/WO grades. Five-six years is probably adequate on average to produce a well-rounded Section Commander(age 24), and about ten-twelve for a Platoon 2IC(age 30). CQMS a couple of years more, and CSM in at about 20 yrs. (age 38). Soldiers who have maintained a regular PT program and watched their weight  and health are quite capable of being fit for the field at that age.

"Plethora" of NCO Ranks: Whoever claims this needs to get out more. Just count the number of ranks between Pte Recruit (equivalent)and the highest NCO rank in the US, German and Polish armies, then come back and we'll talk. (and I'm NOT talking about US- or Russian- style WOs...) We actually have a very slim, functional set of NCO ranks.

Cheers.
 
I agree.  The only ranks that need fixing is the automatic promotions to Cpl and Capt.  Both should be based on merit and requirement, especially seeing as how we see Captains going through their Phase 3!
 
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