Ships' Names and Staff Duties, split from Re: HMCS Athabaskan

[Eye In The Sky]

Ship's names are always capitalized.

Well, you learn something every day on this site.  ;D

 

[aesop081]

Ship's names are always capitalized.

Go tell that to the DND website folks........and to the Author of this  :


http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/cms_operations/operations_e.asp?id=660

I guess a Lieutenant-Commander fucked up yet again.....

Damned...here it is again......

http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/cms_operations/operations_e.asp?id=658

OOPS

http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/cms_operations/operations_e.asp?id=650

YIKES !!!

http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/cms_operations/operations_e.asp?id=633

Sigh.....

http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/cms_operations/operations_e.asp?id=625
http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/cms_operations/operations_e.asp?id=266
http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/cms_operations/operations_e.asp?id=606
http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/cms_operations/operations_e.asp?id=622

 

[Jack Nastyface]

CDN Aviator, some authors may not capitalize a ship's name, just as some people say "on" a ship, vice "in" a ship. Doesn't make it right. I am hoping that some other knowledgeable naval types will chime in to set the record straight. Please take a look at this museum's web sitehttp://www.naval-museum.mb.ca/cgi-bin/db_search.cgi?setup_file=rcnships.set: . Please note that all ship's names are capitalized. I don't make this stuff up, you know. After all the navy is  based on centuries of tradition unimpeded by progress.

 

[aesop081]

CDN Aviator, some authors may not capitalize a ship's name, just as some people say "on" a ship, vice "in" a ship. Doesn't make it right. I am hoping that some other knowledgeable naval types will chime in to set the record straight. Please take a look at this museum's web sitehttp://www.naval-museum.mb.ca/cgi-bin/db_search.cgi?setup_file=rcnships.set: . Please note that all ship's names are capitalized. I don't make this stuff up, you know. After all the navy is  based on centuries of tradition unimpeded by progress.

Do you have an official reference that says that ship names are to be captalized ?

 

[Jack Nastyface]

Do you have an official reference that says that ship names are to be captalized ?

It's late here. I don't suppose that the traditional navy reasoning "that we've always done it that way" will pass muster?! I will do some digging tomorrow and post what I find. You may recall that all ship's cap tallies (cap bands on RCN matelots' hats) were capitalized.

 

[aesop081]

It's late here. I don't suppose that the traditional navy reasoning "that we've always done it that way" will pass muster?! I will do some digging tomorrow and post what I find. You may recall that all ship's cap tallies (cap bands on RCN matelots' hats) were capitalized.

Anyways.......back to that boat subject

 

[Sub_Guy]

I know this isn't about the Athabaskan  >..  But here is the reference, it is the Military Writing Handout,  it states 

Note: In Canadian Forces writing the names of vessels are written in full capitals:
HMCS HALIFAX
HMCS DONNACONA

It only applies to Military writing.

 

[dapaterson]

I'd note that CFP 200, THE HONOURS, FLAGS AND HERITAGE STRUCTURE OF THE CANADIAN FORCES, uses the format HMCS Shipname; that is, the HMCS is capitalized, with the name in italics, with only the first letter capitalized.

 

[Jack Nastyface]

Ok Cdn Aviator, googled "Cdn Forces military writing"and lo and behold, this link popped up:

"http://www.forceseurope.ca/dnn/Portals/0/Germany/Selfkant/PAdm/MW%20Guide%20Handout%20.pdfCdn

It is the CF School of Admin and Logistics RMS Clerk Apprentice Training Military Writing Guide. Won't allow me to cut and paste stuff here, unfortunately. Please see pg 4/16, para e, sub-para 4. e.  I quote:

"e. CAPITALIZATION-Capital letters have 3 basic uses: to give emphasis, to distinguish proper nouns and adjectives and to highlight words in headiings and captions. The following are examples of proper capitalization within DND correspondence: 4. MILITARY TERMS- (e) Her Majesty's Canadian Ship (HMCS) HALIFAX.

Imagine that!

 

[Harley Sailor]

And that would work if this was within DND correspondence.  As this is not then I believe CFP 200 is more to the point.  Another case of good intent, wrong context.

 

[Neill McKay]

My experience has been that informed authors (e.g. specialist naval historians, naval pers who care about such matters, etc.) tend to either capitalize ships' names (HMCS FREDERICTON) or italicize them (HMCS Fredericton), but rarely have I seen anyone but a layman do neither.  Not to say I've never seen it, but it's certainly the execption.

Go tell that to the DND website folks........and to the Author of this

Typesetting is often poor on websites; good old-fashioned printed text is a better place to take examples.

 

[Jack Nastyface]

And that would work if this was within DND correspondence.  As this is not then I believe CFP 200 is more to the point.  Another case of good intent, wrong context.

Funny that. I canvassed all of the naval officers at my unit and asked them how they would write a ship's name. To a man they answered, "All in caps."  I believe that the web sites and articles that Cdn Aviator offered were all DND and military articles. Whatever civvy authors do,I don't  really give a fig. Suggest that you check your work (again).

 

[muffin]

Funny that. I canvassed all of the naval officers at my unit and asked them how they would write a ship's name. To a man they answered, "All in caps."  I believe that the web sites and articles that Cdn Aviator offered were all DND and military articles. Whatever civvy authors do,I don't  really give a fig. Suggest that you check your work (again).

http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/cms_operations/operations_e.asp?id=660

It was by a LCdr

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Hmmm now this is interesing..he is the XO of HMCS Charlottetown/Charlottetown/CHARLOTTETOWN

 

[McG]

You can find in Chapter 6, Section 2 of B-GL-303-002/FP-000, Volume 2, Staff Duties in the Field :

4.      Full Capitalization. Capital letters are used for every letter of:

        i.    names and classes of ships;

Now, this is military writing style.  Odds are that web pages developed more for the public will adopt a civillian writing style (in which there likely is no style directing capitalization beyond the first letter). 

 

[McG]

For Canadian civillian style:

6.07  Modes of transportation

Italicize the names given to individual ships, spacecraft, aircraft and trains but not abbreviations preceding them:

HMCS Brunswicker
the Spirit of St.Louis
the spacecraft Challenger
the Rapido

Note

In Department of National Defence documents, the names of ships are written entirely in upper case and are not italicized:

HMCS ATHABASKAN
HMCS SACKVILLE

The Canadian Style, A Guide to Writting and Editing.  Dundurn Press Ltd in cooperation with PWGSC Translation Bureau.  Toronto ON, 1997.
Page 107

 

[Harley Sailor]

Funny that. I canvassed all of the naval officers at my unit and asked them how they would write a ship's name. To a man they answered, "All in caps."  I believe that the web sites and articles that Cdn Aviator offered were all DND and military articles. Whatever civvy authors do,I don't  really give a fig. Suggest that you check your work (again).

Again I say, if you ask the right question you get the answer you are looking for.

What unit was that again?

 

[Jack Nastyface]

Again I say, if you ask the right question you get the answer you are looking for.

What unit was that again?

I have canvassed a SME on this matter, Cdr Bob Willson.He was the Navo in HMCS HAIDA in '57, commanded a steamer and after he retired was the CO of HAIDA when she was berthed at Ontario Place.  He is a prominent member of the NOAC and The Naval Club of Toronto. I quote:

"Hi Jack,
Greetings from San Francisco and Wine Country.
I don't know of any hard and fast rule.
It generally seems to depend on the editorial policy and style manual of the editor or publisher.
The CP style book, as I recall from memory, only uses Initial Caps, but it does specify not to use "the" before HMCS.
Some publishers italicize ships' names.
I don't have the latest issue of  Starshell to check what they do.
In any of the many newsletters that I have written and edited I always used All Caps, and I think that Parks Canada and the Historic Naval Ships Association adopted that style.
You might also want to check with Graeme Arbuckle, Arbuckle.JGG@forces.gc.ca and CAPT(N) Pickford, Pickford.KJ@forces.gc.ca to see what they say on DND policy.
Sorry that I cannot say one way or the other is mandatory, however, my preference is All Caps to avoid confusion with other names, eg Toronto, the city and TORONTO the ship.
Yours aye,
Bob"

 

[Harley Sailor]

I have canvassed a SME on this matter, Cdr Bob Willson.He was the Navo in HMCS HAIDA in '57, commanded a steamer and after he retired was the CO of HAIDA when she was berthed at Ontario Place.  He is a prominent member of the NOAC and The Naval Club of Toronto. I quote:

"Hi Jack,
Greetings from San Francisco and Wine Country.
I don't know of any hard and fast rule.
It generally seems to depend on the editorial policy and style manual of the editor or publisher.
The CP style book, as I recall from memory, only uses Initial Caps, but it does specify not to use "the" before HMCS.
Some publishers italicize ships' names.
I don't have the latest issue of  Starshell to check what they do.
In any of the many newsletters that I have written and edited I always used All Caps, and I think that Parks Canada and the Historic Naval Ships Association adopted that style.
You might also want to check with Graeme Arbuckle, Arbuckle.JGG@forces.gc.ca and CAPT(N) Pickford, Pickford.KJ@forces.gc.ca to see what they say on DND policy.
Sorry that I cannot say one way or the other is mandatory, however, my preference is All Caps to avoid confusion with other names, eg Toronto, the city and TORONTO the ship.
Yours aye,
Bob"

Having worked for a couple weeks on the Haida in the early 80s, I will agree that you have found a great SME.  I also see that he agrees with us about the caps.  I also agree with him about "the" not going in front of HMCS, but he said nothing about "the" not going in front of the ships name.

 

[aesop081]

If not using all caps is good enough for a Lt Comd writting an article posted on the DND website, then not using capitals is certainly good enough for this website.