Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct in the CF

[the 48th regulator]

Devil's Advocate:  This is all fine and good, but unless all of Canadian society has eradicated this harmful behavior, the problem will persist with every intake of new recruits.

That statement completly mystifies me.  I am not trying to start a fight, but what are you stating in that post?

 

[George Wallace]

That statement completly mystifies me.  I am not trying to start a fight, but what are you stating in that post?

???

You can not eradicate a problem in your little organization if all the rest of society still have that problem, and they are the pool from which you recruit from.  Until the rest of society successfully eradicates that problem, the problem will continue to persist in your organization every time you bring in new people from outside the organization.  No matter how many times you eradicate the problem, it will regenerate every time you recruit.

Is that a little clearer?

[Again....That is playing Devil's Advocate.]

 

[daftandbarmy]

???

You can not eradicate a problem in your little organization if all the rest of society still have that problem, and they are the pool from which you recruit from.  Until the rest of society successfully eradicates that problem, the problem will continue to persist in your organization every time you bring in new people from outside the organization.  No matter how many times you eradicate the problem, it will regenerate every time you recruit.

Is that a little clearer?

[Again....That is playing Devil's Advocate.]

Like suicide....

 

[The Bread Guy]

Devil's Advocate:  This is all fine and good, but unless all of Canadian society has eradicated this harmful behavior, the problem will persist with every intake of new recruits.

If one of the qualities of a group that wields (up to) deadly force on behalf of Canada is discipline, this just becomes one more harmful behaviour to train people to be disciplined about, no?

Until the rest of society successfully eradicates that problem, the problem will continue to persist in your organization every time you bring in new people from outside the organization.  No matter how many times you eradicate the problem, it will regenerate every time you recruit.

Even as a devil's advocate position, does this mean training and educating a recruit produces zero change in their behaviour?  Many recruits don't see the merits of making a bed properly, meeting critical timings or paying attention to detail when they join, and there's all sorts of behavioural mod mechanisms in place that appear to eventually ... encourage such behaviour  ;D 

Like suicide....

And in that example, if an organization sells looking after each other as a hallmark of the system, one would expect that more than just what's available to society is offered to modify such behaviour.  Not at ALL bashing systems in place, but I don't think "well, there's already bad shit in society, so there's no need to do better than the norm" is a reasonable standard. 

If disciplined, respectful & supportive behaviour is the norm, the CAF should be seen to be doing tons better than any system without such characteristics.

If you can train one behaviour, you should be able to train others.  Or am I wrong here?  Or am I just naive?

 

[the 48th regulator]

???

You can not eradicate a problem in your little organization if all the rest of society still have that problem, and they are the pool from which you recruit from.  Until the rest of society successfully eradicates that problem, the problem will continue to persist in your organization every time you bring in new people from outside the organization.  No matter how many times you eradicate the problem, it will regenerate every time you recruit.

Is that a little clearer?

[Again....That is playing Devil's Advocate.]

Devil's advocate, or the Devil himself......

Where do you come up with these wild concepts, and actually think they are sane??

Oh Bedlham, I come to you...

Tess

 

[PuckChaser]

In that same sense, how long have we had zero tolerance for illicit drugs? Forever? Yet we still have people shooting up in their car before going into work. Maybe if it was automatic release for drug violations like the CDS is trying to do with SM charges, there'd be less people doing it, however if people are going to be douches and force themselves on men/women, no amount of briefings and zero tolerance is going to stop that. They'll still do it, we'll charge and release them, and someone will still say we have a sexual misconduct problem regardless of how low we get the percentage.

 

[ballz]

I don't think its a stretch to say that no matter what you do.... even if you can reduce the rate of sexual misconduct to 1% of what the civilian population experiences... you will not completely eradicate it. As George has said / implied, we are just a snapshot of our society.

 

[the 48th regulator]

In that same sense, how long have we had zero tolerance for illicit drugs? Forever? Yet we still have people shooting up in their car before going into work. Maybe if it was automatic release for drug violations like the CDS is trying to do with SM charges, there'd be less people doing it, however if people are going to be douches and force themselves on men/women, no amount of briefings and zero tolerance is going to stop that. They'll still do it, we'll charge and release them, and someone will still say we have a sexual misconduct problem regardless of how low we get the percentage.

Wow, someone is constipated tonight....

Don't mistake that as hard intelligence trying to get out.

 

[dapaterson]

If you set a goal as "Well, we're looking for less, kinda sorta" then nothing will happen. If you set a goal as "Eradicate this" then it's much easier to measure progress.

To quote a certain RCR officer,

Culture change is a long-term endeavor – it is one of the most difficult leadership challenges an organization can undertake, especially one as steeped in tradition as the Canadian Armed Forces. It takes time to generate and inculcate; there are neither magic bullets nor quick fixes.

Probably worth reading: http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/vol16/no3/page6-eng.asp

 

[Jarnhamar]

New CFCWO video came out today talking about SH where he takes this issue very seriously. As mentioned in the video, this will become his personal mission to eradicate this harmful behavior and hopefully pave the way ahead for futur generations. 

http://forces.gc.ca/en/news/article.page?doc=ted-talk-with-chief-warrant-officer-kevin-west%2Fiw7nqn47

I've met CWO Kevin West and listened to him speak about leadership. Really enjoyed listening to him speak. That said and with no disrespect intended  the whole "personal mission to eradicate X from the army" is sorta cliche. Everyone appointed to those senior positions says something like that.  I would be more impressed to see guilty sexual harassers and assaulters get their ass kicked by the system. 

 

[McG]

Let's all try to stay on topic and not turn this thread into shots at each other.

Thanks.

 

[PuckChaser]

I've met CWO Kevin West and listened to him speak about leadership. Really enjoyed listening to him speak. That said and with no disrespect intended  the whole "personal mission to eradicate X from the army" is sorta cliche. Everyone appointed to those senior positions says something like that.  I would be more impressed to see guilty sexual harassers and assaulters get their *** kicked by the system.

I feel all the eradication talk is for public consumption. Deep down, solid leaders like Vance and West know we'll never get rid of it until society gets rid of it. The best we can achieve (which is a far easier goal to attain) is that victims feel the system will take care of their complaints in a speedy and compassionate manner, they have a support system to draw on, offenders are given due process and should they be found guilty, are shown the door.

As soon as we make that culture change (that was alluded to) that the CAF will seriously look into any complaint and charge the accused should there be grounds, we'll be far better off.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I feel all the eradication talk is for public consumption. Deep down, solid leaders like Vance and West know we'll never get rid of it until society gets rid of it. The best we can achieve (which is a far easier goal to attain) is that victims feel the system will take care of their complaints in a speedy and compassionate manner, they have a support system to draw on, offenders are given due process and should they be found guilty, are shown the door.

As soon as we make that culture change (that was alluded to) that the CAF will seriously look into any complaint and charge the accused should there be grounds, we'll be far better off.

Exactly. 

 

[mariomike]

Deep down, solid leaders like Vance and West know we'll never get rid of it until society gets rid of it.

Reminds me of something I heard from a different employer over 44 years ago.

Something about belonging to a social group with its own culture. That we were recruited from a society with many prejudices.

I remember these exact words,

"I cannot change your beliefs, but if you treat anyone with disrespect, I can change your employment!”

The whole speech took about 60 seconds, but I never forgot it.

 

[George Wallace]

Reminds me of something I heard from a different employer over 44 years ago. ( Took about 60 seconds, but I never forgot it. )

Something about belonging to a social group with its own culture. That we were recruited from a society with many prejudices.

I remember these exact words,

"I cannot change your beliefs, but if you treat anyone with disrespect, I can change your employment!”

The whole speech took about 60 seconds, but I never forgot it.

:goodpost:

 

[The Bread Guy]

... The best we can achieve (which is a far easier goal to attain) is that victims feel the system will take care of their complaints in a speedy and compassionate manner, they have a support system to draw on, offenders are given due process and should they be found guilty, are shown the door.

As soon as we make that culture change (that was alluded to) that the CAF will seriously look into any complaint and charge the accused should there be grounds, we'll be far better off.

:nod:

 

[Lumber]

As anyone in the Navy gotten anything with regard to the new "Bystander" training?

I first heard about it on here (of all place...). And it finally came up in an actual military setting: basically, one of the jr officers I have working for me on OJT got an email from his ULO asking if he and the other guys on OJT here had done the bystander training. He had no idea what it was, so he came to ask me, and I only know about it from this forum! I went and did a quick search of our formation's message centre, and there is no mention of it so far.

How is it that the Army already has a directive out to have everyone in the entire Army complete it by the 15th, and yet on December 5th no one in the Navy has been officially told about it?

Cheers

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Lumber:

Have you considered the possibility that "Bystander" is an Army training session, developed by the Army for the Army only, and not a CAF wide training program?

The fact that OP HONOUR is CAF wide does not mean that every aspect of its implementation is also CAF wide and centrally directed. I suspect that subordinate commanders have some leeway in introducing "extra" training in their command as they see fit to meet the objective of the OP.

 

[WLSC]

It's a CAF wild training developed by MPG.  Everyone will go thru it. 

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Then perhaps it is implemented by tranches, one command at a time and the Army got first use.

And, I've been out for a while, so if it's not classified info: what the heck is MPG?