Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct in the CF

[McG]

I looked through some of the recent court martial decisions. A lot of dual charges of sex assault and disgraceful conduct getting pled down to disgraceful conduct. We can anticipate that eventually the media is going to start looking on that and see that relatively few convictions for sex offences are resulting from this new push. The optics will not play well.

Maybe, or maybe this is a sign that individuals who would escape punishment in the civilian world are still being held professionally accountable through the lesser charge available to the military.

 

[mariomike]

Maybe, or maybe this is a sign that individuals who would escape punishment in the civilian world are still being held professionally accountable through the lesser charge available to the military.

Maybe, maybe not.

Professional conduct outside of profession
http://www.hrreporter.com/sharedwidgets/systools/_printpost_.aspx?articleid=853
How far should high standards of professional conduct apply when employees are off duty?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

His victim is one of the lead plaintiffs in a lawsuit that was filed yesterday against the government on the grounds of sexual mistreatment in the CAF. I have not yet read the notice of action, but presumably it's going to be similar in nature to what the RCMP recently settled on.

I looked through some of the recent court martial decisions. A lot of dual charges of sex assault and disgraceful conduct getting pled down to disgraceful conduct. We can anticipate that eventually the media is going to start looking on that and see that relatively few convictions for sex offences are resulting from this new push. The optics will not play well.

Fair enough, but you also cannot have the CoC be seen to be tampering with the administration of the military justice system (and the independence of the military judges, prosecutors and defence lawyers) by directing no more plea bargains on sexual assault charges. I would argue that COA would lead to a far worse outcome then plea bargaining. Plus (and you would know this best of all), it is always a crap shoot on sexual assault charges, especially in "he said/she said (or he said/he said or she said/she said)" situations where the evidence is not all that strong, you risk getting no conviction at all or really putting the victim through the ringer on the witness stand.

This is not easy stuff.

 

[FSTO]

I have no argument with the "we have to clean up our act right now" directive from the CDS. But the high dudgeon coming from the press and the talking heads is getting to be a little much. In light of the Ghomeshi issue within the CBC, I would like to see that institution take the survey and publish the results.

 

[PuckChaser]

I just don't see how a lawsuit is going to help the situation at all. I see it more as a money grab, rather than allowing Op HONOUR and other initiatives to root out those who feel like they can force themselves on others.

Obviously we don't have the facts on that specific case, but reduction in rank and a large fine for a MWO (considering the time was likely a WO) seems pretty light. We should have higher standards for our leadership, and this guy should have been shown the door.

 

[Lightguns]

It isn't going to help anything in the organization nor is meant to assist the organization, that ship has sunk.  It is an expression of people who have been frustrated by the system and have moved outside it.  It is also a symptom of the organization losing control of the file.  The worst thing for the organization is that the class action is likely to bring dozens of unresolved cases or cases that were handled improperly to light.  There is likely to be a some perp hunting and a maybe a reopening of old cases in those cases where intent and result are very opposed.  Maybe something on the order of the Somalia Affair for a bit as new dirty laundry is aired and washed on a weekly basis by the press. 

Lots of folks likely about to spin but they don't know it yet.  The retired RCMP guy out my way said a some of his buddies were expelling bricks all through the RCMP class action. 

 

[The Bread Guy]

I just don't see how a lawsuit is going to help the situation at all. I see it more as a money grab, rather than allowing Op HONOUR and other initiatives to root out those who feel like they can force themselves on others.

Op HONOUR deals with those in the system - but what about those in the old system that led to things (seemingly, anyway) being ignored?

The worst thing for the organization is that the class action is likely to bring dozens of unresolved cases or cases that were handled improperly to light.

Agreed - but this is what happens when people don't do the right thing all the time, sadly.  Suuuuuuuuuuuuuux for those going through it now -- even those who do it right but get painted as if they don't -- though.

 

[Loachman]

I see it more as a money grab

While many of us are suspicious of such lawsuits, not necessarily without justification, one should not leap to conclusions.

Victims may have incurred some very real costs as a result of their abuse, and those costs may not be limited to financial ones.

I have been an Assisting Officer in a disgusting non-sexual harassment case in the past. I do not doubt that similar, or worse, stuff still happens. Those who suffer deserve care and support.

 

[TCM621]

What the hell is "unwanted sexual touching"?  I think most of us would define it along the lines of a butt grab but what is the definition used in the survey? Could a hug count? What about a hand on the shoulder?  Absent a clear definition on what the majority of the self reported cases are, I don't think those numbers have meaning.

As for sexual jokes,  I am sorry but while some are clearly inappropriate,  the types of jokes I hear are indicative of a tight knit group of people who are comfortable around each other. People just need to raise their get offended bar a bit.

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

 

[Remius]

What the hell is "unwanted sexual touching"?  I think most of us would define it along the lines of a butt grab but what is the definition used in the survey? Could a hug count? What about a hand on the shoulder? 

If you are asking those questions now after all the forced training rammed down our throats to knock it into us so that we know the difference then clearly the CAF still has a long way to go.  either that or YOU aren't getting it. 

 

[OldSolduer]

If you are asking those questions now after all the forced training rammed down our throats to knock it into us so that we know the difference then clearly the CAF still has a long way to go.  either that or YOU aren't getting it.

Knock off the righteous indignation. THAT was uncalled for. There has to be CLEAR definitions, not someone's whim.

 

[Remius]

Knock off the righteous indignation. THAT was uncalled for. There has to be CLEAR definitions, not someone's whim.

Sorry Hamish, but if someone doesn't know what unwanted sexual touching is by now then they haven't been listening. It has nothing to do with righteous indignation. 

 

[Stoker]

So in regards to the class action, does this mean everyone and his dog will be coming out the woodwork and saying they were touched or assaulted. I see people giving their deposition, naming names and obviously the crown will see this info. This has the potential to end peoples career even though said person didn't do anything or if they did not having their day in court. I admit i'm not up on class actions but I assume detailed descriptions of what happened to you need to be given in order to prove that you were affected and should get money?

 

[OldSolduer]

Sorry Hamish, but if someone doesn't know what unwanted sexual touching is by now then they haven't been listening. It has nothing to do with righteous indignation.

Can you tell me what unwanted sexual touching is?

Can anyone? The recipient is the one who decides what it is, in my mind.

So should we adopt a "no touch policy" ? Is that what it's coming to?

 

[Remius]

Can you tell me what unwanted sexual touching is?

Unwanted sexual touching: Has anyone touched you against your will in any sexual way? This includes unwanted touching or grabbing, kissing or fondling?

That was the exact question asked in the survey.

 

[The Bread Guy]

ZERO idea what was taught, but googling "unwanted sexual touching gc.ca" came up with this reasonably standardized definition ...

• “During the past 12 months, has anyone ever touched you against your will in any sexual way? By this I mean anything from unwanted touching or grabbing, to kissing or fondling.” (Justice Canada)
• "unwanted sexual touching, including touching, grabbing, kissing or fondling" (Status of Women Canada)
• "During the past 12 months, has anyone ever touched you against your will in any sexual way? By this I mean anything from unwanted touching or grabbing, to kissing or fondling." (Stats Can)

YMMV

 

[smale436]

Speaking as a man, I recently had a female (married not that it matters) supervisor who I worked with for years, mostly as the same rank.  The nicest person I've ever met in my life. Sometimes when I'd be sitting at my desk with her standing next to me discussing stuff she would put her hand on my shoulder and give it a quick squeeze, mostly when I came across slightly stressed out but sometimes not. I appreciated it as things like that can make your day when you're facing struggles whether at work or home. Did I ever once think it was inappropriate and would I ever make a complaint? Absolutely not.

As a man who believes fully in the principle behind Op Honour, and who now thinks three times before speaking, I would not even dare consider making a similar friendly shoulder touch to a woman, no matter how well I know them. It makes you wonder how many people will be facing administrative or disciplinary action due to similarly well-meaning gestures or even private conversations overheard by people that deemed them "offensive". I know it scares me to think that I could hang for saying something months ago that I cannot remember, because nobody said at that time, "hey that's not acceptable to say." People are human and two people's values and philosophies on what is and is not inappropriate conversation may not be similar. Socializing with co-workers outside of work/going to the mess was already on the decline as it was, it will just decline further as people don't want to put themselves in a position where an offhand comment turns into an RW or worse. Personally I won't be attending the unit xmas party nor staying at mess dinners past the final port toast anymore. Not because I don't trust myself, but because I don't trust others.

 

[TCM621]

Unwanted sexual touching: Has anyone touched you against your will in any sexual way? This includes unwanted touching or grabbing, kissing or fondling?

That was the exact question asked in the survey.

That's just circular. Unwanted touching is touching that is unwanted. What is touching in a sexual way? Unwanted touching.

There is no clear line drawn and for all we know the self reported un wanted touching is a pat on the shoulder. Conversely,  it could be straight up boob grabs. The term is not defined and as such meaningless.

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

That's just circular. Unwanted touching is touching that is unwanted. What is touching in a sexual way? Unwanted touching.

There is no clear line drawn and for all we know the self reported un wanted touching is a pat on the shoulder. Conversely,  it

could be straight up boob grabs. The term is not defined and as such meaningless.

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

Just use the rules of the "man hug" as a loose guideline  ;D

 

[PuckChaser]

While many of us are suspicious of such lawsuits, not necessarily without justification, one should not leap to conclusions.

Victims may have incurred some very real costs as a result of their abuse, and those costs may not be limited to financial ones.

I have been an Assisting Officer in a disgusting non-sexual harassment case in the past. I do not doubt that similar, or worse, stuff still happens. Those who suffer deserve care and support.

Absolutely not painting them all with the "money grab" brush, but I know if I had to endure something horrible like the stories of the 3 key plantiffs, money would be the furthest thing from my mind. Money in a lawsuit isn't going to fix the problems that allowed them to be taken advantage of. Their stories and advocacy to help shine light on a dark situation is where I see the most good coming out from it.