Secondary role of the Engineer: to be Infantry

[043]

Pnr Pl Comd (2 VP) was the best job I ever had.   As to the difference between engineers and pioneers, I always saw the engineers as pioneer wannabees...

The essential difference between a Pnr Pl and an attacged Engr Tp is what I like to call the choke out factor.   If a CO doesn't get his intimate mob/c-mob/prot support, he can choke out the Pnr Pl Comd.   That is harder to do when the Pl/Tp Comd in question belongs to someone else...

Dave

Dave,

Looking for a scrap are you?? Cdn Sappers are the only Engineers in the world who have a secondary role. You have no idea man, no idea at all.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Expand please Mike. Not quite sure what you mean about the role thing. Thx.

 

[043]

Recce Guy,

Here is the definition:

By definition, combat engineering is primarily concerned with meeting mobility, counter-mobility and survivability requirements of the manoeuvre forces and is most often carried out in the combat zone. As a secondary role, combat engineers are also called upon to fight as infantry when the need arises.

In the past couple of years, in 2 CER anyways, we have been focusing extensively on the Infantry Role. Makes sense and it is a good change from having to carry an APC worth of Pubs around in the field.

Mike

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Thx Mike, thought that might have been what you were getting at. Just wasn't sure as we're all supposed to play infateer when called on.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Thx Mike, thought that might have been what you were getting at. Just wasn't sure as we're all supposed to play infateer when called on.

Actually, big difference.  Sappers are trained to be infanteers as a secondary role - the rest of you are trained to be soldiers as a secondary role.

And yes Mike, I was spoiling for a fight!

 

[Sapper6]

In the past couple of years, in 2 CER anyways, we have been focusing extensively on the Infantry Role. Makes sense and it is a good change from having to carry an APC worth of Pubs around in the field.
Mike

We trained in our secondary role in 1 CER as well.   This was a good thing as CO 3 PPCLI BG, upon arrival in Kandahar, Afghanistan on Op APOLLO did his combat estimate and discovered he was a Company short to fulfil the perimeter security task in Feb 02.   So, in went 12 Fd Sqn (+) into the trenches and covered off Sector BLUE.   With the support of a DF Pl from the US, a TOW det and the Pioneer Sect, all attached, I believe (in my humble opinion) the Sappers did an outstanding job fulfilling their mission (which was in their secondary role).

S6

 

[043]

Actually, big difference.   Sappers are trained to be infanteers as a secondary role - the rest of you are trained to be soldiers as a secondary role.

And yes Mike, I was spoiling for a fight!

Here is more:

For Lt John M Chard, as well as a sergeant and a sapper of the Royal Engineers, the day started off routinely enough. It was 22 January, 1879, and they were running a ferry near Rorke's Drift - drift meaning ford - much in keeping with a long-standing engineer role of maintaining communications. At 2:30 in the afternoon, however, the lieutenant received news of the annihilation of a substantial British force by Zulu impi at nearby Insandlwana and he had to consider the possibility that his position might well come under attack. At the drift was a contingent of the 24th Regiment of Foot, commanded by Lieutenant Gonville Bromhead, but the latter was four years, the engineers junior so Chard took command of the entire force of 137 men, including 36 in hospital. What followed was a ten hour battle between British and Zulu, the former holding out in a mission station made slightly more defensible through the use of mealie bags and crates. In the end, the Zulu withdrew, the British contingent was 11 Victoria Crosses - more than in any other battle before or since - and Chard returned to his duties as an Engineer!

Go SAPPERS!!!!!

 

[E31]

Engr Sappers have M203's( at least 2 per section) on their C7's. How many Rifle-man carry a prodder!!! :threat:

 

[043]

Well if you talk to some of these "guys", apparently a few sections have them!

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

When the need arises as I'm sure your aware we use our bayonet or cleaning rod to prod.

 

[E31]

1.  "When the need arises" a clerk or supply tech or even a infanteer will use anything that is solid enough to clear a path to get "out of harms way", as taught in MAT.

2.  A Sapper will "put himself in harms way" to clear the way ahead, providing mobility to friendly forces. 
The difference is at the end of that task the commander can now count on his Sappers ( who are made up the same as Infantry sections, with respect to numbers and kit) to carry out infantry tasks.

3. I have many friends in the Infantry (old CAR days, RCR and PPCLI) who I have soldiered with overseas and in Canada who will echo this.

4. Thus ends the lesson

CHIMO!!!

 

[043]

OUTSTANDING!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

We all have other roles other then our primary ones including the Infantry.   Thus ends my lesson.

 

[043]

Okay CFL,

Let's hear it then, what is the Secondary role of the Infantry?

 

[Infanteer]

To serve as cheap labour for the well-trained, expensive Engineers when constructing crucial defensive positions.  BTDT....

Bottom line is, we are all soldiers first.

 

[043]

Hey man, what about the One Team One Vision concept man? LOL

Would much rather sling mud with you guys then the Armd or Arty.

 

[E31]

First off I'm going to ignore the fact that you  2 infantry Cpl's have next to no experience outside of your own worlds but I will
Agree , we are all soldiers first, and I think that CFL needs to remember that.

You can not have a "combat team" without the 4 arms.

"The Engrs are the arm that moves the Fist"
Gen Patten

 

[Infanteer]

First off I'm going to ignore the fact that you   2 infantry Cpl's have next to no experience outside of your own worlds

What does the fact that we're Infantry Corporals have to do with an understanding of approaches to Combined Arms.

Some Artillery guy could come along and say the same about you with regards to his field, but it does nothing to further the arguement.

You can not have a "combat team" without the 4 arms.

Nor can you have a combat team without Combat Support and Combat Service Support...all those pretty engineering vehicles would look good with no gas.

This is why I've been a solid proponent of the "Soldier First" mentality for quite some time now.

Other then that, what is the arguement here?

 

[E31]

The argument is that just because you read a manual on Combat engineers or the Combat team does not make you an SME.

"you have to live it to write about it",  I have read many books on SNIPERS,  the PPCLI and other infantry books ,

but I will not sit here and tell you how to do your job !!! I will let an RCR WO do that .

PRO PATRIA!!

 

[Infanteer]

I never tried to pretend I was an Engineering SME, so I do not understand where the low-blow comes from?