Russia woos our military with deals on guns, planes

[redleafjumper]

it says literally "4th Canadian Separate Brigade"

Yes, that's true, but I would translate "separate" (in that context) as independent.

 

[TCBF]

I would pick separate, as there was absolutely nothing we could have done independantly from V Corps or VII Corps.

;D

Tom

 

[Jantor]

The Japanese do have their own cargo plane design, the Kawasaki C-1 cargo plane. Unfortunately, there are a couple of things about the plane that makes it a non-starter for us:
1. It carries less than a C-130 (12 tons of cargo max)
2. The design is 30 years old, and the Japanese are already thinking about replacing it.
3. We can't get Japanese military hardware; their laws prevent the export of military hardware.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/japan/c-1.htm

It seems that the Japanese have a new transport aircraft already. The C-X is undergoing stress tests now and should make its first flight late next year. It is being developed along with a maritime patrol aircraft called the P-X that will replace the P-3C Orion's in service. The Japanese will supposedly have some models at the Paris airshow this month.

I couldn't find much in the way of specifications on the net but there was this:http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/05/30/206952/Japanese+C-X+transport+on+schedule+for+first+flight.html

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

I'd be interested in some RPGs and other explody-things like RPOs and their AGLs.  As for the rest of their kit I'll take a pass.

2B

 

[redleafjumper]

I would pick separate, as there was absolutely nothing we could have done independently from V Corps or VII Corps.

Tom




Tom, that's certainly true, perhaps it's a quibble over semantics, but 'separate' just seemed stronger than 'independent' to me.  In the usage, I thought independant was a better translation.

Redleafjumper

 

[couchcommander]

As I pointed out in other threads, CASR can be a highly suspect source that often produces "bright ideas" that are not fully thought through.  

Ah, understood.

 

[TCBF]

"perhaps it's a quibble over semantics"

- Hence, my smiley.

Tom

 

[redleafjumper]

Of course Tom!  ;D

 

[pbi]

Unless the Russians have greatly improved the quality control that bedevilled much of the Eastbloc's military output, I can't even see giving the stuff a second look. (See story below). As well as being a somewhat unstable place politically, IMHO Russia can be a very tricky and frustrating place to try to do business. It seems to me that there is far more corruption and outright criminal activity than we face here in the West (not say it doesn't exist...). How would we sort out business or trade disputes with a Russian manufacturer? Who would we appeal to? The Russian court system?

Story: In 1993 I served in Mozambique with a number of Czech Army officers. One of them, a Gunner, had commanded the first battery of the wheeled 152mm SPG "Dana" that you may recall from your AFV recognition training. When it appeared, we regarded this as a pretty impressive piece of gear. What the LCol told me was quite different. He said that when they received the guns and took them out for field training and firing, serious problems began to appear. The brake lines were mounted on the outside of the hull, so that when travelling cross country they were often damaged, with the result that it became difficult to stop the gun when moving at any speed. The autoloader that brought ammo from a storage magazine to the gun frequently jammed, requiring the crew to leave the NBC-protected gun cabin and manually free the jammed ammo. Overall, he said, it was a POS and a big disappointment.

Now: have Western armies bought gear that has also turned out be a disappointing POS? Yes, of course. The difference, I think, is that those quality problems in the West were not symptomatic of the whole industrial system. As well, we in the West have a thing called "competition" that tends to push defective firms towards the rear, or gradually out of business, if it is allowed to function properly.

Cheers

 

[Jantor]

Unless the companies name is spelled something like Bombardier

 

[pbi]

Unless the companies name is spelled something like Bombardier

As well, we in the West have a thing called "competition" that tends to push defective firms towards the rear, or gradually out of business, if it is allowed to function properly.

Cheers

 

[Jantor]

The business of building airplanes in Canada hasn't functioned properly in a long time, or were you referring to the U.S.?

 

[JackD]

Actually, Regarding those helicopters, the idea that it would be difficult to buy maintenance parts, or that third line maintenance support would be difficult - as this can only sourced from or be done in Russia - is false. Polish companies refurbish these types of aircraft, Romania does too.. and these nations are part of NATO.... After-all, if the helicopters are safe enough for the Pope to travel in... surely they are safe enough for the Canadian soldier... (eagerly awaiting comment on that last..)

 

[KevinB]

The Pope does not have STANAG, ABCA, or IFF worries.

 

[Armymatters]

The Pope does not have STANAG, ABCA, or IFF worries.

We can take care of some of those problems by fitting Western avionics to the airplanes. India is a good example, as they operate both Eastern bloc and Western aircraft in their military, and with their Sukhoi fighters, they have a mix of Russian (radar mainly), French, and Israeli avionics.

 

[Kirkhill]

Here's the thing as far as I am concerned.  Better we should buy weapons from people we expect to be fighting alongside than people we might be fighting against.

 

[JackD]

Regarding IFF, stanags and whatever - surely the problem and remedy already exists as Romania, Poland, Hungary, Slovakia and the Czech Republic are NATO members. As to the Pope, losing him in an aircrash would be a PR nightmare... (losing the odd politician on the otherhand... could be beneficial.. but then there is crew and pilot to consider)... As to fighting against Russia..(Kirkhill's comment) the Cold war is over...or at least the last one is...

 

[chanman]

Anyone know about S. Korea's experiences with Russian AFV's?  I vaguely remember them obtaining them in lieu of a debt the Russians owed.

http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/nation/200403/kt2004030917463710510.htm

 

[TCBF]

Now THAT is very interesting.  Thanks.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

When I was posted to Victoria, I wandered into VIH's open hangar one day and had a look at some of the their Russian Helos they use for heli-logging.  The VIH guys really seemed to like the helos, but I got the distinct impression that they had no desire to go through another 2-3 years of engineering work and to get more like them approved for flight in North America.  They had to design a redundant hydraulic system for the controls, from scratch.  All of the avionics had to be replaced.  They complained that the engines were a bit short lifed.

They did not have to go through the trouble of installing a 1553 databus, armament systems, sensors, etc, etc, etc.

Don't get me wrong- the Russians have done some really neat design work in military kit over the years.  They just have a different concept of operating than we do- their kit is generally disposable after a fairly short service life.  Ours is not.  You can argue the merits of either, but we (along with most of the rest of NATO) have gone a different direction.  We should not be swimming the opposite direction of our allies.