Role of Officer vs job of NCM [Merged]

[traviss-g]

Ha Ha riiight I suppose that would make alot of sense  .

 

[Shamrock]

Normally, we just say Officer.  As all of them have commissions.

By normally, he means politely.  Normally, it's a different set of words used to describe officers

 

[traviss-g]

Something a little more imaginative i would guess 

 

[Run away gun]

Normally, we just say Officer.  As all of them have commissions.

"The WO is  in talking to the officer now".

In an army environment most young NCMs and NCOs will refer to an officer by the position they hold. For example a platoon commander (usually a Lieutenant or Captain) will usually just be referred to as the platoon commander. Likewise for the OC (officer commanding), who is usually a Major and in charge of a company or the CO, who commands the battalion/regiment.

Of course this is when said person is not in attendance. When they are present, just a simple sir is sufficient.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

In an army environment most young NCMs and NCOs will refer to an officer by the position they hold. For example a platoon commander (usually a Lieutenant or Captain) will usually just be referred to as the platoon commander. Likewise for the OC (officer commanding), who is usually a Major and in charge of a company or the CO, who commands the battalion/regiment.

Of course this is when said person is not in attendance. When they are present, just a simple sir is sufficient.

I hope that wasn't for me (I was Combat Arms for 17 years afterall).  I didn't want to get into that stuff, and really confuse the lad with how we called the Troop Officer the troopie, the Tp WO "alpha", crew commanders by their c/s, 49C for the SSM, etc and so on.... ;D

 

[traviss-g]

Haha well Eye in the sky I appreciate the thought  . I re-read your post like three times trying to figure out what the abbreviations meant, i ended up lying on the floor with my foot behind my head and my dog licking my face  :-\.

 

[Run away gun]

I hope that wasn't for me (I was Combat Arms for 17 years afterall).  I didn't want to get into that stuff, and really confuse the lad with how we called the Troop Officer the troopie, the Tp WO "alpha", crew commanders by their c/s, 49C for the SSM, etc and so on.... ;D

No, more of an add-on to what you said.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Haha well Eye in the sky I appreciate the thought  . I re-read your post like three times trying to figure out what the abbreviations meant, i ended up lying on the floor with my foot behind my head and my dog licking my face  :-\.

It sounds confusing but...really it isn't.  You'll catch on to the lingo/slang/jargon.  And its MOC specific some of it, the infantry types have their own, the Arty guys do too, blackhatters, Air Force, Navy, RMS Clerks.  Everyone has their own lingo.  Personally its one of the things I love about the military.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

No, more of an add-on to what you said.

Seen

 

[traviss-g]

It sounds confusing but...really it isn't.  You'll catch on to the lingo/slang/jargon. 

Yea it's just fun to read post here when you dont understand the lingo, like reading a book half in english half in latin. Thanks for all the posts, especially you Eye in the sky I appreciate all the answers you have given me not just on this one thread  .

 

[Loachman]

Alright sorry but I really did try to look,

No problem. Unsuccessful attempts are better than no attempts, and you'll see people who won't even bother to do that fairly frequently. You'll get used to picking the right key words eventually - just keep practicing.

I used the search function looking for keywords such as "Difference, NCO, commisioned".

Computers are dumb, and cannot interpret. This is one reason why we insist upon proper spelling here, as it makes searches easier and more complete. There are two "s" in "commissioned". Leaving unnecessary suffixes off generally helps, too. "Commission" will find "commissioned", but the latter will not find the former so you'll miss a lot of  posts that way.

"Commission" does bring up quite a few posts that appear to be useful.

I also tried "Commissioning Plan" and found some potential amongst a lot of chaff.

Knowing the names of the various plans helps. Try "DEO", "CEOTP", "UTPNCM", "ROTP", and "CFR".

You'll catch on.

 

[Loachman]

crew commanders by their c/s, 49C for the SSM, etc and so on.... ;D

We use fixed callsigns at unit level. The CO is always "9", pronounced "Niner". The Deputy Commanding Officer, or DCO, is always "9A", pronounced "Niner Alpha". The RSM would be Niner Charlie". The unit CP is  "Zero". Companies/Squadrons/Batteries (sub-units; names vary depending upon the type of unit) are "1", "2", "3" etcetera. Their OCs (Officers Commanding) would be "One Niner", "Two Niner" etcetera. Their 2ICs (Seconds in Command) would have an "Alpha" after that. The platoons and their commanders in A Company (callsign "1") would be "One One", "One Two", and "One Three". The sections would have an "Alpha", "Bravo", and "Charlie" after that. This is done so that should an enemy be listening into that unit's frequency (which will change at least daily), he will have a harder time determining which unit it is as all have the same callsign structure. It is fairly common to refer to people by their callsign.

You will also hear wives referred to as "Niner Domestic".

We'll leave Apointment Titles and Arm Indicators for a later lesson.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Traviss,

I will try to give you an overview of career progression for two hypothetical high school graduates who join the Canadian Forces.  I will make them Armoured (Crewman) since that is my background.

One of the pair decides that he has had enough school for now and wants some practical experience.  He enrolls in the Canadian Forces at 18 and goes off to the Recruit School at St-Jean Quebec.  He has the normal recruit school experience and comes out knowing how to wear his uniform, understands the rank structure, can fire the C7 reasonably well and can perform drill.  He then goes off to Gagetown New Brunswick where he does the DP 1 (Developmental Period) Armoured Recce Crewman course at the Armour School.  Here he learns the basics of his occupation and comes out knowing how to be an armoured soldier (driving, comms, field living, some more weapons, etc).  He then joins his Regiment as a badged Trooper and will be assigned to a vehicle (call-sign) in a Troop in a Squadron.  For arguments sake we will make him a driver in a Coyote.  At this point he is a fully-functioning soldier in the Canadian Force performing the task he was initially enrolled for.  As a new soldier at the Regiment he will most likely get quite a bit of supervision and direction from his immediate supervisors, and hopefully some seasoned Troopers and Corporals (a Private in the Armoured Corps is called a Trooper) will give him plenty of pointers.

He will go on exercises and will most likely deploy to Afghanistan with his Squadron.  The work-up training for Afghanistan is quite long, and by the time he deploys he will most likely be a trusted member of the Troop capable of performing his duties to a high standard with little direction or supervision.  He might have picked up some additional courses along the way.  He will come back from Afghanistan as a combat veteran.  Hopefully he will get a little down-time at this point before entering another training cycle.  Depending on the timing of his Squadron's deployment he might have served 4 years at this point and would get promoted to Corporal.  He probably received his 25mm Turret Operator Course (gunnery) and is likely employed as a gunner in a Coyote.  Depending on a bunch of things he might be in the hopper for another tour, and at some point in the near future he is selected to undergo leadership training with a view to promotion (technically appointment) to Master Corporal (MCpl).  The time to get to MCpl will depend on how he performs and how many MCpl slots are available.  I think that two years as a Cpl is the minimum but it usually takes longer.  For a while in the 90s there were almost no promotions but things have gotten much better.  Promotion to MCpl will depend on merit and is not guaranteed. For argument sake we will say that after his second tour (this time as a gunner) and some additional courses (quite challenging ones), our soldier is promoted to MCpl at year nine.  He becomes a junior crew commander and after four years with another tour he gets promoted to Sergeant (Sgt).  He is now a Patrol Commander with two vehicles under him.  He is an expert in how to fight an Armoured Fighting Vehicle.  He has been instructing soldiers on call-outs, and is now posted to the Armour School as an instructor.

His friend from high school, on the other hand, was a successful ROTP applicant.  He spent four years in university as an OCdt and attended training in the summer while his friend was serving at the Regiment and in Afghanistan.  The summer training got progressively harder, and after four years he emerges as a newly-minted Second Lieutenant (2Lt) bearing a commission.  He comes to the Regiment and is appointed as a Troop Leader.  He has a lot of responsibility, but he also has a lot of help.  Although his training will give him some credibility, he is very much an unknown quantity.  He will get quite a bit of guidance and supervision.  There will be a Warrant Officer who is the second-in-command of the Troop (called a Tp WO) who most likely has between fifteen and twenty years of service.  The WO advises, guides and (in private) corrects the young officer.  There are also two Captains (the Battle Captain and the Squadron 2IC) in the Squadron who will ride herd on the young Troop Leaders and a Major who commands the whole lot (Officer Commanding or OC).  Those Captains will have already served a three year tour at the Regiment as Troop Leaders and have then spent three years at the Armour School or some other establishment before coming back to the Regiment (ten to twelve years of service including the four at university).  The Major will be on his third hitch at the Regiment.  The Major is joined by a Master Warrant Officer (MWO) who is the Squadron Sergeant Major (SSM).  The SSM probably has between twenty and twenty-five years of service with an impressive number of operational tours.  They are the Squadron "command team" and they work together to ensure that the Squadron is operationally effective.

Don't worry about who gets the most "respect."  Everybody has a duty to perform, and they all have to be done well for the organization to be effective (in an AFV everybody has to do their job or you are ineffective).  Both the guy who joined as an NCM and the guy who joined as an officer can have rewarding careers and raise families if they want, and both will be accorded the respect that they earn. 

Best of luck!

 

[greenjacket]

are you going reg force or reserve because the carrear progression is different

 

[traviss-g]

I'm going reg. forces. So even after the training both superiors and, in the case of the Officer, inferiors (I don't like that word but I don't know what to call those with a lower rank.) will still give advice, help out the newbies. I think I understand, so when it comes to NCM and Officers experience is not necessarily reflected by rank. I do have another question, a little (to be read ALOT) off topic but it is only becuase you said your background was in armour and that is one of the MOC I am looking at. Does it require good math skills? I have up to grade 11 university math but it has been about 3 years since i have done any math harder than simple additions and multiplications. I have been practicing my math a bit for the apptitude test but things are not going so well  :-\.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I'm going reg. forces. So even after the training both superiors and, in the case of the Officer, inferiors (I don't like that word but I don't know what to call those with a lower rank.) will still give advice, help out the newbies. I think I understand, so when it comes to NCM and Officers experience is not necessarily reflected by rank. I do have another question, a little (to be read ALOT) off topic but it is only becuase you said your background was in armour and that is one of the MOC I am looking at. Does it require good math skills? I have up to grade 11 university math but it has been about 3 years since i have done any math harder than simple additions and multiplications. I have been practicing my math a bit for the apptitude test but things are not going so well  :-\.

They are referred to as subordinates vice inferiors but that made me chuckle! 

Experience and rank are usually unofficially tied to each other, as you won't see a Warrant Officer with 3 years in, as an example.

As I am no longer in the Armour Corps, I'll leave your question on math to those that are still in the know.  I would guess that, as a Crewman (the NCM side of the Corps) math would probably come into play during your gunnery course.

 

[North Star]

Basically, here's the deal:

If you want to do a job very well, and become an subject matter expert, and ultimately be respected for that, become an NCM. While you will on occasion be employed outside your trade, you'll always go back to it and be expected to be a master of it. As you progress, you'll do leadership courses and courses that will focus you on becoming an expert in your trade (ei...as infantry you start out learning how to be a rifleman, then how to lead a section, then how to master all small arms, then how to lead a platoon/make sure your officer isn't nuts, courses on how to oversee other infantrymen, etc). By the end of your career, you'll mentor soldiers on how to excel in their trade, and advise officers on how their ideas/policies will effect the soldiers.

If you want to enter what you can call a "managerial" class, become an officer. You won't actually become a master at your occupation: you're expected to become a generalist that can understand the many conflicting requirements of planning and executing military operations. As you go up in rank, instead of focusing on your occupation you will broaden your perspective (ei...learn how to command a platoon, then a combat team of infantry, armour, etc, then a mixed BG, then Joint or combined ops, etc). By the time you reach the end of your career, you really won't be an "expert" on your area, but you will know how everything fits together and bring that perspective into your "piece".

The other thing is leadership changes between being an NCM/NCO and officer. As a NCO, your leadership tool-box will be mainly of the inspirational kind. You'll lead by personal example most of the time, although there will be occasions when you'll employ a more consultative form of leadership. For an officer you start out with a personal kind of leadership style, but you will have to evolve it into a consultative form by the time you hit Major. It's hard to lead by personal example as you go up the chain, as your breadth of responsibilities increase. You'll still pull it out of your leadership "tool-box" from time to time, but not as much as NCOs do.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Monsoon]

If you want to enter what you can call a "managerial" class, become an officer. You won't actually become a master at your occupation

This will come as a surprise to air force pilots, naval MARS types and officers outside the army combat arms who have specific occupations distinct from the subordinates they direct. I see what you're getting at, but the extent to which officers are just management generalists who learn less tradecraft than their subordinates is largely limited to the combat arms. In the air force, operational officers fly planes and their subordinates maintain them - two distinct trades that both sides have mastered.

 

[aesop081]

In the air force, operational officers fly planes and their subordinates maintain them - two distinct trades that both sides have mastered.

Some of us subordinates fly on them too..........

 

[Monsoon]

Some of us subordinates fly on them too..........

Sure, but you see what I'm getting at. Altogether different jobs.