Role of Officer vs job of NCM [Merged]

[thorbahn]

Hi, this is certainly true. On my BMQ course of 27, there are 2 Officer Cadets and one 2nd Lieutenant. These 3 were given these ranks immediately upon joining, solely based on their University degrees.

The 2nd Lieutenant was given that rank because he had 2 degrees, one which was Education....not sure of the other.

 

[McG]

Unfortunately, your example is irrelevant to the question and stated incorrectly.  The three on your course applied and were accepted to enroll as officers.  This is not something that happened after they left the CFRC, and if they wanted to be NCMs they could have been.

The question was about joining as an NCM and then at a later date becoming an officer because of an already held university degree.  As stated by RADOP, it is possible and is called the Special Commissioning Plan.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Hereis the relevant CFAO:

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/009-70_e.asp

CFAO 9-70 SPECIAL COMMISSIONING PLAN

PURPOSE

1. This order prescribes the policy and procedures governing the Special
Commissioning Plan (SCP).

GENERAL

2. The purpose of the SCP is to provide a means whereby Regular Force
non-cornmissioned members (NCMs), possessing the academic qualifications for
enrolment as a direct entry officer (DEO) in accordance with Annex A to
CFAO 6-1, Enrolment--Regular Force, may apply for commissioning. It is
stressed that the SCP is intended only for those who have displayed
personal qualities and job performance indicative of officer potential.
Selection is subject to the applicant's officer suitability and existing
military requirements.

ELIGIBILITY REQUIREMENTS

3. To be eligible for the SCP an applicant must meet the following
requirements by 1 Jul of the year in which the selection board is convened:

  a. Citizenship. An applicant must be a Canadian citizen or, if a landed
      immigrant, meet the requirements of serial 1 of Annex A to CFAO 6-1;

  b. Period of Remaining Service. Superceded by ADM(HR-Mil) Instruction 14/04

  c. Military Qualification Level. An applicant must have achieved a
      minimum qualification level (QL) 3;

  d. Medical Standards. An applicant must meet the minimum medical
      standards in accordance with CFAO 34-30, Medical Standards for the
      Canadian Forces, for the MOC(s) for which application is made. The
      applicant's medical profile must be awarded or confirmed within the
      12 month period immediately prior to the competition closing date; and

  e. Academic Standards. An applicant must possess a baccalaureate degree,
      or in some cases a technology diploma, that satisfies the criteria
      specified in Annex A to CFAO 6-1, or, alternatively, in Annex A to
      CFAO 9-12, Regular Officer Training Plan.

APPLICATION PROCEDURES

4. Announcement of the annual competition will be promulgated by message.

5. SCP application procedures are as follows:

(see remainder at link) - http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/009-70_e.asp

 

[Gayson]

It only says Regular Force in there.  I assume then that a reservist NCM could not comission from the ranks?

 

[McG]

CFR is a separate program entirely and does not require the university education.
It is an option for reservists.

 

[thorbahn]

Unfortunately, your example is irrelevant to the question and stated incorrectly.  The three on your course applied and were accepted to enroll as officers.  This is not something that happened after they left the CFRC, and if they wanted to be NCMs they could have been.

The question was about joining as an NCM and then at a later date becoming an officer because of an already held university degree.  As stated by RADOP, it is possible and is called the Special Commissioning Plan.

Ah, I must have misunderstood the question. Although, I'm not sure if you're suggesting they applied to be officers, because that is not the case.

 

[rcrs]

Man this site is great! I did a search and found out most of the info I was interested in but still have a few Q's.

Ok, I'm Res NCM with 5 years in, doing Engineering degree with 1 year left. I'm stayed Res cause ROTP doesn't give any huge benefit $ or career wise. But I'm considering EGN in reg force Officer. I know UTP-NCM is for reg f ncm only. And CFR is for CO's recomendations (this include revervists?). But what is OCTP-FS? I can't find any info on it?

I'd prefer to get onto the pay level D or E, but since ROTP does not give any benefits to members of reserves I'm guessing the system is designed so that former reserves can't get the same sweet deal (pay level D/E) as the reg force members can?

Looking forward to hearing your input, thanks

rcrs

 

[TheCheez]

Best thing to do is talk to a recruiter.

You might notice that the pay scales are even once you hit Capt which is not so far down the line. Also if you have your engineering degree they may still be offering a 40k bonus for joining as DEO.

If the money is that important to you though I was under the impression that Civie engineers made a LOT more money than DND officers.

 

[tree hugger]

However, if you have already received any money from the reserve education reimbursement, you are not eligible for the signing bonus.

 

[kincanucks]

Man this site is great! I did a search and found out most of the info I was interested in but still have a few Q's.

Ok, I'm Res NCM with 5 years in, doing Engineering degree with 1 year left. I'm stayed Res cause ROTP doesn't give any huge benefit $ or career wise. But I'm considering EGN in reg force Officer. I know UTP-NCM is for reg f ncm only. And CFR is for CO's recomendations (this include revervists?). But what is OCTP-FS? I can't find any info on it?

I'd prefer to get onto the pay level D or E, but since ROTP does not give any benefits to members of reserves I'm guessing the system is designed so that former reserves can't get the same sweet deal (pay level D/E) as the reg force members can?

Looking forward to hearing your input, thanks

rcrs

Are you looking for academic subsidization or an entry plan because it is certainly hard to tell from your post.  Subsidization - no and entry plan for Reg F is DEO after you finish your degree and you start at pay level C.

 

[foxtwo]

Just wanted to know what you would recommend out of the two, and the different roles and responsibilities, which one is more fun...

 

[Gunner]

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/22686.0.html

Do an advanced search of the recruiting forum and you will find many discussions on this topic.  I have placed a link to one of them.

Good luck.

 

[Zombie]

I'm going NCM mainly because SAR Techs do not take officers, although I'd probably go NCM anyway, and become an officer later if desired.

 

[WannaBeFlyer]

FoxTwo,

I realize you are doing some soul searching but you said you wanted to be a pilot in previous posts and seemed pretty excited about that. Do well in high school, extremely well, eat lots of carrots and think of nothing else if this is truly what you want.

 

[Da_man]

At first i wanted to become an officier... But now that im an NCM i dont want to be an officer anymore.  Its really a different job.

 

[Poppa]

Well it's happened.
Just crossed over to the dark side effective 31 Mar. It's going to be a huge change in how I approach things now.
I think the hardest thing will be not jumping in and letting the NCO's do their thing (even if IMHO I can do it better).

On the plus side I know that this board can serve as a great PD tool and if I get too wrapped around the axel there are those here that can sort me out.

Funny, I'm nervous about going to work on Monday.

Cheers

 

[pbi]

Very interesting thread with alot of great comments. At one time I too thought that prospective officer's should start as private's. Now I think its not as important the source of the officer as the quality of cadet training to prepare that cadet for his first duty assignment as a platoon leader. Lt's are mentored by their NCO's- if they allow it. In other words there are new 2Lt's who know they lack practical experience and then there are the guy's that think they know everything and can do anything. In the case of the latter they have a rough time. Young officer's need to learn the ropes from their NCO's as well as from their company commander. The successful company CO must have effective platoon leader's ,to affect this the company CO must mentor their platoon leader's and get them to be open minded in taking advice from their senior NCO's.

There has been some discussion about adopting the UK/Canadian system where Major's command a company. This might work in a smaller army where you want to create job's for Major's. I think it creates a glut of Major's with limited opportunity to advance to LTC. Our most recent promotion list to Major selected an amazing 96% of eligible Captain's. But selection to LTC is even more competitive and until Iraq we utilize an up or out policy. Meaning if you are passed over twice you are out [under the rank of LTC]. If a LTC fail's to get promoted he/she can stay until manadatory retirement. I think Major's are future battalion commander's and need to be a Bn S-3 and a Bn XO not a company CO. Our junior leader's [Lt/Capt] have done an outstanding job in both Iraq and Afghanistan so our officer training must be effective.

Tomahawk-didn't you post this comment, or something very much like it, somewhere else? I seem to recall responding to your observations about "jobs for Majors" and a "glut of Majors" on another thread. Suffice it to say, we represent two very different armies with differing ways of doing things, different concerns and very different heritage. We lack your mass, firepower and overwhelming logistics so we (along  with many Commonwealth armies including the UK) have to rely on greater experience at lower tactical levels and generally higher levels of individual training for the average soldier.

We have also traditionally operated with emphasis at a lower tactical level than the US forces, although IMHO your recent experiences in OIF/OEF are certainly changing that. A symptom of this is the concentration of experience in a Commonwealth-style company/squadron/battery HQ: A Major as OC (US=Capt), A Capt as 2IC (US=1Lt), and a Sgt Maj (US=First Sgt) make up the key members of the command team. It works for us. Only a percentage of our Capts will ever make it to Maj (our promotion percentages are nowhere near as high as yours...) so the "glut" really never materializes. And only a very, very small number of Majors will ever make it to LCol and then get selected for command of a unit, so we can't regard unit command as the sole potential employment for Majors.

Cheers.

 

[HangEmHigh]

Hello everyone,  I've been an avid reader of this forum site and am making my very first post!  (How exciting!!)

I am looking for suggestions from those who have travelled the winding road joining the CFs.  My interest in becoming a member of the CFs began when I inquired about joining my local Army Reserve Regiment (I have just completed applying for an NCM Infantry position with them). 

Excited about the training and lifestyle prospects of a Reserve position, I have been seriously considering taking it to the next level and joining the CFs full time.  Here's where things get a little hazy for me as there are many career paths open to me.  My ultimate goal is to become an officer in the Army (logistics, intelligence - I'm still deciding which would be best for me and would consider other options based on what (type of officer) the Army is projected to be in need of).

A little background on myself.  I am 30 years old and have a high school education (sadly my grades average at just over 70% and no credits equivalent to today's "university prep" level).  I have a strong leadership backgroup backed with a wealth of management experience from my current and past employers.

So with that in mind here's what I've been looking at.

1) ROTP - I would like to do this, and I'm aware of the challenges ahead.  I am prepared to take the required H.S. Uni. prep courses to bolster my diploma to make me a viable candidate for this program.  This could take up to a year to complete.

2) Stay in the reserves and go to College/Uni (to get a B.A) on my own.  This would still require me to upgrade my H.S. grades/credits.  Then join the CFs as a DEO candidate.  This could take in upwards of 4 to 5 years to complete.

3) Join the CFs as an NCM and take the Officer training program (I forget the lengthy title of this one) after my first term of service is up.  As I understand once again, I would still be required to upgrade my H.S. marks/credits.  Is it difficult to make the transition from NCM to Officer once enrolled?

Basically I am a mature, intelligent man - who could kick his own butt for being such a lazy-slacker as a teenager!  I am fully committed to getting an education and a progressive career.  Is there anyone out there who has experienced a similar situation?  Any advice any of you could give would be greatly appreciated!!

Cheers 

 

[kincanucks]

1) ROTP - I would like to do this, and I'm aware of the challenges ahead.   I am prepared to take the required H.S. Uni. prep courses to bolster my diploma to make me a viable candidate for this program.   This could take up to a year to complete.

Forget it.   Hard to see anyone over 22 getting selected.   They are looking for fresh young minds and bodies to mold.

2) Stay in the reserves and go to College/Uni (to get a B.A) on my own.   This would still require me to upgrade my H.S. grades/credits.   Then join the CFs as a DEO candidate.   This could take in upwards of 4 to 5 years to complete.

Personally, unless you are unsure about joining fulltime this would be a waste of time.

3) Join the CFs as an NCM and take the Officer training program (I forget the lengthy title of this one) after my first term of service is up.   As I understand once again, I would still be required to upgrade my H.S. marks/credits.   Is it difficult to make the transition from NCM to Officer once enrolled?

The program is called the University Training Plan for NCMs (UTPNCM) and I wished I had done it instead of Officer Cadet training plan for men (OCTPM) which no longer exists.   You be required to do more that upgrade your marks you will also need to complete university courses.   The more you have done the better your chances of selection.

 

[HangEmHigh]

1) ROTP - I would like to do this, and I'm aware of the challenges ahead.   I am prepared to take the required H.S. Uni. prep courses to bolster my diploma to make me a viable candidate for this program.   This could take up to a year to complete.

Forget it.   Hard to see anyone over 22 getting selected.   They are looking for fresh young minds and bodies to mold.

2) Stay in the reserves and go to College/Uni (to get a B.A) on my own.   This would still require me to upgrade my H.S. grades/credits.   Then join the CFs as a DEO candidate.   This could take in upwards of 4 to 5 years to complete.

Personally, unless you are unsure about joining fulltime this would be a waste of time.

3) Join the CFs as an NCM and take the Officer training program (I forget the lengthy title of this one) after my first term of service is up.   As I understand once again, I would still be required to upgrade my H.S. marks/credits.   Is it difficult to make the transition from NCM to Officer once enrolled?

The program is called the University Training Plan for NCMs (UTPNCM) and I wished I had done it instead of Officer Cadet training plan for men (OCTPM) which no longer exists.   You be required to do more that upgrade your marks you will also need to complete university courses.   The more you have done the better you chances of selection.

Thanks for your reply...  I am defnitely cdefinitelyto the idea of joining full time... I'm just not sure which path to take.  It seems as though the UTPNCM (thanks for the name!)  would be the way to go.  I have no doubt in my mind I am fully capable to rising to the challenge of not only improving my HS marks, but also getting the UNI rolling on my own.  Is the selection process for this similar to that of the ROTP? ( In regards to having a major disadvantage of being "long in the tooth" at 30? )

Cheers!