Ricks Napkin Challenge- The Infantry Section and Platoon

[Kirkhill]

ATGM-R is the name of the project to replace our previous ATGM (eryx?) and potentially the TOWs (which honestly I think we should keep since there are very few systems that can stop a TOW II from killing a tank) since it may expand to vehicle born ATGMs, but the main effort for it is a dismounted MRAAW.

I might add is as long as ISSP delivers, and in a timely fashion sect comds / 2ICs and above will be fairly networked with ATAK and new purpose built leader radios, whilst individual section members will have a vhf radio as well which may see some experimentation on the frontage a section / pl / coy can occupy as far as communications are concerned.

Thanks for that. I can see hanging onto the TOW II as long as it works.

The "replace" I might find to be a bit disingenuous. Eryx, adopted in the 90s as a 600m, started life as I remember in the 80s as the SRAAW(H) project - the Short Range Anti-Armour Weapon (Heavy) - a Dragon analog to permit sections to kill tanks. I believe NLAW would be the current analog.

It was to be fielded along with the MRAAW(H) project - the Medium Range Anti-Armour Weapon (Heavy) to permit platoons and companies to kill tanks. The original candidate was the Milan which was already being replaced by the Javelin. That project was cancelled and eventually revived as ALAAWS - the Advanced Light Anti Armour Weapons System - which started looking at Spike as well as Javelin. I thought that project was still on the books as part of the LFE projects. I guess it has morphed again.

I hope you get something soon.


The issue of comms and frontages, and the impact or equipment, ranges and tactics is fascinating to watch. One thing I find really interesting in Ukraine is just how robust multi-nodal comms systems are.

 

[Kirkhill]

Because of how it reloads, ie from the back after opening it up, it’d be very awkward to do as a solo operation. The safety issue has been mentioned as well, and that’s honestly an easier work around.

And that’s fair, I’m just pointing out that it’s going to effect your man power.

The point that you and others like Infanteer make of tying up two people penetrates even my skull.

So why not make a virtue out of necessity? Could you pair the CG-84 and the DMR as a team. With the pair supplying precision offensive fires, mutual protection, mutual spotting and the DMR guy loading for the CG-84.

Automatic weapons and grenade launchers are so universally distributed as to be effectively the tools of the assault elements. Perhaps the LMG group could be replaced by the Precision Fires group?

 

[KevinB]

DMR gives semi precision fire to the squad and platoon.
Ideally they are located with a leader who can take advantage of the DMR’s VAS to both identify and eliminate targets.
The DMR shouldn’t be a #2 on a weapon.

 

[IRepoCans]

I'm partial to how the Brits juggled their sharpshooter rifle and UGLs opposed to how they say it's done doctrinally.

IC w/ the sharpshooter rifle allowing for greater PID/visual SA at distance without having to go to binos, and still allows them to assault. 2IC w/ a UGL (or stand-alone in the future in our case?) allowing for when establishing a FB for a sect flanking you have a weapon system that can sink rounds into dead ground or around cover that direct fire can't get into or behind. Unless it's changed again, the working draft of the inf sect and pl operations manual has the C20 as a section weapon, in addition to the 4 Div LIB proposals.

 

[Underway]

I'm partial to how the Brits juggled their sharpshooter rifle and UGLs opposed to how they say it's done doctrinally.

IC w/ the sharpshooter rifle allowing for greater PID/visual SA at distance without having to go to binos, and still allows them to assault. 2IC w/ a UGL (or stand-alone in the future in our case?) allowing for when establishing a FB for a sect flanking you have a weapon system that can sink rounds into dead ground or around cover that direct fire can't get into or behind. Unless it's changed again, the working draft of the inf sect and pl operations manual has the C20 as a section weapon, in addition to the 4 Div LIB proposals.

C20 in every section then as a sharpshooter, but having it on the section IC seems like a mistake as it "straws" your vision instead of directing the section disposition.

What are the 4 Div LIB proposals?

 

[OldSolduer]

C20 in every section then as a sharpshooter, but having it on the section IC seems like a mistake as it "straws" your vision instead of directing the section disposition.

What are the 4 Div LIB proposals?

I agree. The Section Comd has more to worry about.

 

[Kirkhill]

DMR gives semi precision Edit: Anti-Personnel fire to the squad and platoon.
Ideally they are located with a leader who can take advantage of the DMR’s VAS to both identify and eliminate targets.
The DMR shouldn’t be a #2 on a weapon.

CG-84 gives semi precision Anti-Armour fire to the squad and platoon.
Ideally they are located with a leader who can take advantage of the DMR’s VAS to both identify and eliminate targets.
So give the DMR the ability to take out heavier targets for the leader
And make the CG-84 operator #2 to the DMR operator.


Both are likely to be taking single shots when the opportunity presents itself. Both will be wanting to approach stealthily.

I suspect that the Confined Space munitions, with their low back blast and over pressure, will also present less of a signature on firing. And the weapon doesn't have to be loaded at the firing point. It can be preloaded and carried loaded to the firing point.

Neither the DMR nor the CG-84 are going to be sending suppressive fire.

 

[KevinB]

I agree. The Section Comd has more to worry about.

Your DMR should be a fairly senior guy probably the next senior to the 2I/C -- he can info the IC, on things as well. The same applied for the Pl DMR to the Pl Comd/WO

Ideally the DMR is a 14.5-16" barrel so he can reach 800m, but also be useful in a close fight and not carry a boat anchor.
In the ideal world they have a 1-8 or 1-10x optic, as well as a clip on fused system for low light.
@Kirkhill don't dismiss the suppressive power of the DMR -- well aimed close shots will suppress folks way better than a belt fed hitting nowhere near them.
Plus if the DMR can align the Section IC, the Section IC or 2I/C can use a GL to mark a target is others have issues.

The CG team realistically isn't going to be engaging tanks if you can help it, they are better used for anti-structure or IFV engagement (even then it is not ideal).
If that is your only Anti-Armor weapon, you're up a creek without a paddle.

 

[Underway]

Ideally the DMR is a 14.5-16" barrel

C20 is an 18" barrel IIRC. I'm not a rifle expert but it felt good to pick one up at the Colt CANSEC booth. It will be a nice addition to the sections which for years have run with the 2xGrenadier, 2xrifles, 2xLMG's +IC

 

[Kirkhill]

Your DMR should be a fairly senior guy probably the next senior to the 2I/C -- he can info the IC, on things as well. The same applied for the Pl DMR to the Pl Comd/WO

Ideally the DMR is a 14.5-16" barrel so he can reach 800m, but also be useful in a close fight and not carry a boat anchor.
In the ideal world they have a 1-8 or 1-10x optic, as well as a clip on fused system for low light.
@Kirkhill don't dismiss the suppressive power of the DMR -- well aimed close shots will suppress folks way better than a belt fed hitting nowhere near them.
Plus if the DMR can align the Section IC, the Section IC or 2I/C can use a GL to mark a target is others have issues.

The CG team realistically isn't going to be engaging tanks if you can help it, they are better used for anti-structure or IFV engagement (even then it is not ideal).
If that is your only Anti-Armor weapon, you're up a creek without a paddle.

Fair enough on the Anti-Armour thing but that CG-84 is still only going to be launching a handful of rounds at precisely designated targets. If the occasional well aimed round of 7.62 is going to encourage the other chap to think again I can only imagine what an 84mm airburst or a Keyhole shot might encourage. And besides, if you are out and an armoured vehicle shows up that your int guys missed then even a CG84 with HEDP might be welcome.

The CG-84 with a couple of rounds on your section or platoon leader's hip, along with his DMR, offers that leader a significant means of directly influencing the battle. Give the CG guy an automatic Carbine to supply cover for the DMR. And if his services aren't required then reassign him or use him as a runner.

Short form - consider him a stronger version of the old 2" platoon mortar man.

 

[KevinB]

Fair enough on the Anti-Armour thing but that CG-84 is still only going to be launching a handful of rounds at precisely designated targets. If the occasional well aimed round of 7.62 is going to encourage the other chap to think again I can only imagine what an 84mm airburst or a Keyhole shot might encourage. And besides, if you are out and an armoured vehicle shows up that your int guys missed then even a CG84 with HEDP might be welcome.

The CG-84 with a couple of rounds on your section or platoon leader's hip, along with his DMR, offers that leader a significant means of directly influencing the battle. Give the CG guy an automatic Carbine to supply cover for the DMR. And if his services aren't required then reassign him or use him as a runner.

Short form - consider him a stronger version of the old 2" platoon mortar man.

The CG needs ammo.
The DMR isn’t his ammo bearer, he has other kit to carry.
It needs a dedicated #2

C20 is an 18" barrel IIRC. I'm not a rifle expert but it felt good to pick one up at the Colt CANSEC booth. It will be a nice addition to the sections which for years have run with the 2xGrenadier, 2xrifles, 2xLMG's +IC

I’m curious to the 18”. We tested the 18” 7.62 and came up with a lot of data that said “no point”. The US Army had briefly looked at 18” 7.62 in 2008/9, but dropped it with all the data that came out showing no advantage.
I’ve seen the Colt (C20) in 20” and 16” 7.62 flavors and was surprised on the 18”. I’m curious as to the ammo that was used to validate that.

The SDMR program down here, the Brit DMR are 16”, following the JSOC K gun
But frankly their is not a big difference between the 14.5” and the 20” to velocity these days with most current issues ammo, so the 14.5” makes more sense for a DMR, plus for M4/C8 armed troops they really don’t stand out.

 

[Underway]

I’m curious to the 18”. We tested the 18” 7.62 and came up with a lot of data that said “no point”. The US Army had briefly looked at 18” 7.62 in 2008/9, but dropped it with all the data that came out showing no advantage.
I’ve seen the Colt (C20) in 20” and 16” 7.62 flavors and was surprised on the 18”. I’m curious as to the ammo that was used to validate that.

This is all I had to go off of.

C20 Colt Canada. Stated that the ammo is 175gr Federal Gold Medal Match.

 

[markppcli]

C20 is an 18" barrel IIRC. I'm not a rifle expert but it felt good to pick one up at the Colt CANSEC booth. It will be a nice addition to the sections which for years have run with the 2xGrenadier, 2xrifles, 2xLMG's +IC

Well it’s not going to sections, unless this thread has its way that is lol.

 

[markppcli]

Fair enough on the Anti-Armour thing but that CG-84 is still only going to be launching a handful of rounds at precisely designated targets. If the occasional well aimed round of 7.62 is going to encourage the other chap to think again I can only imagine what an 84mm airburst or a Keyhole shot might encourage. And besides, if you are out and an armoured vehicle shows up that your int guys missed then even a CG84 with HEDP might be welcome.

The CG-84 with a couple of rounds on your section or platoon leader's hip, along with his DMR, offers that leader a significant means of directly influencing the battle. Give the CG guy an automatic Carbine to supply cover for the DMR. And if his services aren't required then reassign him or use him as a runner.

Short form - consider him a stronger version of the old 2" platoon mortar man.

Yes, no one is discounting its effectiveness. What is being said is that there is a cost to bringing that along; I personally wouldn’t want to be kicking in a door, or hopping through a window, with an 84 strapped to my back. Available yes, always employed I would think not. Which is where my desire for a single operator means to chuck HE / AT coke from.

 

[FJAG]

Yes, no one is discounting its effectiveness. What is being said is that there is a cost to bringing that along; I personally wouldn’t want to be kicking in a door, or hopping through a window, with an 84 strapped to my back. Available yes, always employed I would think not. Which is where my desire for a single operator means to chuck HE / AT coke from.

We used to have four in a battery and it was always a pain in the ass to bring along and deploy for local defence. People would curse it and they never had to carry it more than fifty metres nor pack any ammo. Fun on range days though.

 

[OldSolduer]

A word to the wise which I know Army Rick will think of too.

Beware of how much stuff you carry. Speed is life - body armor buys you some time but if you are too slow and overburdened your troops will become casualties of enemy fire and possibly heat stroke, over use injuries etc.

 

[Infanteer]

Robocop does not concur.

 

[KevinB]

Robocop does not concur.

I mentally checked out of TALOS about two years ago -- but if the Ironman suit ever becomes practical - you can have your cake and eat it too...

 

[ArmyRick]

Screw it! Lets get the infamous Tactical Studies Group (Airborne of course) expert Mike Sparks to enlighten us on how we can simply use the "Gavin" vehicle (m113 to the rest of the human population) as a section and platoon carrier, MBT, IFV, APC, Recce, Star Destroyer, etc roles.

 

[KevinB]

A word to the wise which I know Army Rick will think of too.

Beware of how much stuff you carry. Speed is life - body armor buys you some time but if you are too slow and overburdened your troops will become casualties of enemy fire and possibly heat stroke, over use injuries etc.

Interestingly enough - generally the PPE worn now is at the Max weight of a Soldier operating for long periods -- that is without weapon, ammo etc