Remembrance Day: National holiday?/"Veterans' Day"? (merged)

[KevinB]

Due to the Civil War, we have Memorial Day down here that does what Remembrance Day does in Canada (and most of the rest of the world). It was a pre-existing condition as it was already in effect when WWI ended, so we added Veterans Day on Nov 11 which is solely a celebration for veterans — not fallen in battle members.

The two different events on different dates work well. I’m conflicted about Veterans Day, as while I think it’s important for nations to remember and honor people who’s served - I always feel like it’s also patting myself on the back for something I wanted to do since I was knee high to a grasshopper.

I honestly relate better to Matt Best’s ‘Thank You for my Service’ as I mean I generally enjoyed soldiering, and I didn’t do it for praise of people I generally don’t know and probably don’t care to know.

 

[ueo]

Correct.

I think Remembrance Day will need to change. I agree with the sentiment that WW1 & WW2 can basically be considered ancient history at this point. I grew up knowing WW2 Veterans but young people today have no concept of it. I don't even really know what they teach in Schools anymore regarding Military History?

Very bloody little!

 

[Edward Campbell]

Due to the Civil War, we have Memorial Day down here that does what Remembrance Day does in Canada (and most of the rest of the world). It was a pre-existing condition as it was already in effect when WWI ended, so we added Veterans Day on Nov 11 which is solely a celebration for veterans — not fallen in battle members.

The two different events on different dates work well. I’m conflicted about Veterans Day, as while I think it’s important for nations to remember and honor people who’s served - I always feel like it’s also patting myself on the back for something I wanted to do since I was knee high to a grasshopper.

I honestly relate better to Matt Best’s ‘Thank You for my Service’ as I mean I generally enjoyed soldiering, and I didn’t do it for praise of people I generally don’t know and probably don’t care to know.

From almost the beginning I was taught, and I still believe, that I "served" because of the guys (and, later gals) on my left and right. I recall the corporals and sergeants in the Depot talking about the Regiment and the company but, mainly, it was all about the section, about us, "we few, we happy few ... " etc, etc. I still felt that way 30+ years later when "we few" were a small team of officers and senior civil servants and a couple of very senior NCOs who were technical experts in an arcane field.

I guess I'm saying that I "served" for my own pleasure, for selfish reasons: because it made sense to me on a very personal level.

 

[Rifleman62]

Afghanistan was not a war but a Special Duty Area according to VAC.

 

[dimsum]

Afghanistan was not a war but a Special Duty Area according to VAC.

The last time Canada declared war was in WWII, so technically every conflict since then wasn’t a war.

 

[brihard]

Afghanistan was not a war but a Special Duty Area according to VAC.

And I can fucking guarantee you that not a single one of the people who made that policy determination crossed paths in theatre with a single one of us.

In my six months there I can think of at least 19 reasons it was a war.

 

[dimsum]

And I can fucking guarantee you that not a single one of the people who made that policy determination crossed paths in theatre with a single one of us.

In my six months there I can think of at least 19 reasons it was a war.

It was definitely a major combat operation. But rightly or wrongly, it wasn’t legally a war.

 

[brihard]

It was definitely a major combat operation. But rightly or wrongly, it wasn’t legally a war.

Funny how their tune changes between the Remembrance Day messaging, and when it comes time to write a check.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Since the inception of the United Nations, formal declarations of war by Western Democracies are very rare. In fact I can’t think of any, even the US Congress did not declare war in Vietnam or the UK declare war in the Falklands. It’s unnecessary and just implied that when a uniformed 19 year old from Saskatchewan is ordered by his country to shoot an armed 19 year old from another country regardless of uniform, it’s colloquial war.
No formal declaration is needed except at VAC and the finance ministry after people cut from the same cloth that ordered the shooting then ordered the cutting and running- almost as if it never happened and they don’t want to talk about it, or publish books about it, or label the other side as the enemy, and then prefer to rewrite these matters derisively as “whipping ou the bombers”.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Afghanistan was definitely part of a war. I would actually classify it more specifically as a "campaign".

The war, which Afghanistan was a campaign of, is still ongoing and has never ended. We just pretend it did.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I think we too often associate Remembrance Day with WW1, 2 and Korea only.

We lost roughly 130 Canadians on Peacekeeping Missions and 159 in Afghanistan. Not to mention the countless wounded.

We have generations of military sacrifice that should be remembered and revered. And I suspect we will have more in the future, soon. The Legion and other "veterans" services would do well to embrace those newer generations lest their cause fades away into the either.

Personally I include wounded and damaged in my thoughts when I think about all the people that didn't make it home, as there are a lot of people surviving injuries now that never would have made it, plus the number of suicides from Afg vets exceeds the number of folks that made it home.

The mental injuries aren't new either, we just have a more clinical sounding name now for it now than shell shock.

Personnally a big part of it for me is a reminder how stupid war is, and the ones that pay for it aren't the ones that benefit from it, but ultimately the people that died were probably there for their wingers, not abstract ideas or concepts.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Funny how their tune changes between the Remembrance Day messaging, and when it comes time to write a check.

The folks in charge of our National War Memorial accord it, (and Korea and South Africa) with the same status as World Wars 1 and 2:

 

[dapaterson]

Afghanistan was not a war but a Special Duty Area according to VAC.

Not according to VAC. CAF and VAC don't decide whether something is "war"; that's entirely a political decision.

 

[The Bread Guy]

… I honestly relate better to Matt Best’s ‘Thank You for my Service’ as I mean I generally enjoyed soldiering, and I didn’t do it for praise of people I generally don’t know and probably don’t care to know.

I’m more a fan of thanking someone more specifically for their hard work & sacrifices - including their families - instead of the (becoming more generic) thanking someone for their service. And this also works for more than just military.

 

[mariomike]

Thank you for your annual rant. I fully agree with you.

Always appreciated, Mr. Campbell.

One statistic I remember from school days ( back when the Earth was cooling, as they say LOL ) was 2% of the male population of our city were killed in WW1. The First World War alone.

There are even interactive maps showing the addresses of the city's First and Second World Wars war dead.

Some neighbourhoods were devastated.

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

Afghanistan conflict has many names depending on who is discussing it and what government department they represent.

I did a quick google search ( yes actually used google) and found the various names for the Afghanistan conflict.

Afghanistan Mission
Afghanistan Conflict

All above names used by various Government of Canada agencies. None called it a war. Except for one website
www.canada.ca/en/army/services/line-sight/articles/2023/11/the-canadian-army-in-afghanistan.html
They use the word WAR in the first sentence of the the first paragraph. ( makes me wonder, guess there is no policy or funding attached to the web site.)
( 10 minute search)
The Media called it the War on Terror. But we all know the Media cannot even call a piece of military equipment by the right name, everything is a tank. So they will name anything incorrectly if it makes a bigger head line.

The Royal Legion of Canada calls it a war, in their magazine 06 March 2024, but some small town legions and their members do not consider the troops veterans. ( maybe my personal take on the reaction of my local legion, I might be biased). Because they did not partake in an official war on paper.

Collins dictionary : A veteran is someone who has served in the armed forces of their country, especially during a war.
: A war is a period of fighting or conflict between countries or states.

Reading the definations and using my high school logic and many years of reading Canadian Military history, ( no way an expert) but just a guess.

Canada does not consider it a war, for the following reasons, we did not go there as Canadians more like we went as part of NATO.

NATO not being a country or a state, it cannot declare or make war.

NATO sends troops on missions only if the governments agree to send troops and each country has its own rules and limits that their troops can serve within.

Korea was not a war, but a UN Police Action but it is on most war memorials, I do not see Afghanistan on all memorials.

But my personal opinion is: Canada sent troops to a conflict zone, not to stand between the 2 sides to keep the peace. But instead Canada sent troops to into combat and expected the troops to do soldier stuff, and the government did not expect everyone to come home.

I think the soldiers when they came home were let down by their government, not because of lack of effort upon the troops while over there but the lack of effort of the government to support the troops when they came home. It was not like the Boer, First and Second World War, and Korea where the troops came home as clear winners.

Afghanistan was a war in everything but name. I think the Afghanistan veterans are just as important as the veterans from any other war. Should be treated as a war veteran everyday not just one day a year. ( we will see what happens 40 years from now when our last veterans of Afghanistan are left and how they are treated) This lack of support, has caused so many issues for so many.

I am not veteran of Afghanistan released 1995.

Maybe we need a Veterans' Day, where those who served can stand up and be proud of their service. Remembrance Day is not the day, in my mind it would like being a kid and going to Grandma's funeral in the morning and having your birthday in the afternoon.
Veterans' Day should be a day to celebrate our service as a country. ( but this Canada, and we forget our history and leave it in a corner as if we are almost ashamed of our success ) So it will never happen

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Funny how their tune changes between the Remembrance Day messaging, and when it comes time to write a check.

"Not a War"

Lots of peacekeeping being sent down range here

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Afghanistan was not a war but a Special Duty Area according to VAC.

 

[stoker dave]

(And no one ever mentions the 'Gulf War' of 1990-1991.)

 

[SeaKingTacco]

(And no one ever mentions the 'Gulf War' of 1990-1991.)

I do.