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Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society

Some people are always quick to drag out the "separation of church and state" idea, but very few of them know what it originally meant and what it was intended to do.

The term originated in the United States. As they were building the institutions of government, certain people began pushing for an "established" church - that is, to declare a certain Christian denomination the state church of the United States (like the Anglican church in England, the Lutheran in Germany, etc.) IIRC, the front-running denomination was the Congregational church.

This alarmed a lot of people - many immigrants to the States had come there for religious freedom. Baptists, in particular, were afraid that the persecution they had been facing in Britain and continental Europe up to this time would continue if the Congregational church was "established." Overseas, Baptists had been prevented from meeting together and preaching publicly because they were "noncomformists" - they were not licenced by the state church. Back then, in Britain, the government granted preaching licences like today's governments grant driver's licences. So faced with the same situation in the New World, Baptists protested, saying that the role of government should not be to prescribe in matters of religious practice, but to guard free speech and freedom of association so that all religious groups would have the ability to practice without interference.

Thomas Jefferson wrote a Baptist association a letter assuring them that there would be no establishment of religion in the United States. This letter was the origin of the term, "separation of church and state."

Now, notice what this was intended to accomplish, IN ITS HISTORICAL CONTEXT. The issue was not religious activity in government institutions - it was a given that people of faith would be active in politics. Rather, it was government interference in religious affairs and regulation of religious worship - the spectre of government regulation of religious bodies and churches, and licencing of preachers.

Or, in other words, separation of church and state was never intended to protect government from religion. It was intended to safeguard religion from government.

Think of it this way. Why are churches tax-exempt? Because of separation of church and state. If churches were to lose their tax-exempt status, they would be taxpaying institutions like any other, and thus entitled to make political contributions and engage in political activity.

So those rabid anti-religious types who see tax exemptions of churches as some kind of governmental sponsorship of religion, if they were to succeed in squashing these privileges, would usher in an age of religious political activity. Imagine the effects on the body politic of church donations - worth billions of dollars a year - began being funneled to political activism. Since most religious institutions are conservative by nature, take a wild guess at which political parties would benefit most from this idea.

Where am I going with this? Well, separation of church and state was NEVER intended to "establish" atheism as a state religion. It was, rather, intended to enshrine in law the respect that the state must have for religious belief.

And in that view, a military drill movement that removes headdress as a mark of respect for a religious ceremony is not, and never can be, a mark of submission to that religious system. Rather, it is a recognition that said religious practice is a right respected and defended by the state.

The people removing their headdress are not being asked to pray. Rather, the institution of the Canadian Forces is expressing, through the medium of ceremonial drill, the State's respect for religious freedom.
 
I actually encountered a teeny tiny problem with this on Stalwart Guardian, when an NRE soldier got a little bent out of shape (just a little) at having to remove headdress during the Padre's blessing. We had this very discussion, quietly and after the fact.

I'm an Atheist myself, but I have no problem at all with being asked to remove headdress and stand quietly during a blessing. Even though I myself may not believe in any religion or higher power, many of my troops do, and for them, the presence of the padre and some low-key religious observations can be a great comfort to them.

We are, someday, going to ask a lot of these soldiers - perhaps even the ultimate commitment. If we can do something to help comfort them in the process, we should do that, and we should show respect for their beliefs, even if we don't share them personally.

It's not a case of being forced to kowtow to religion. It's a mark of respect for your men.

And Padres make great councillors. Sometimes even atheists need someone to talk to.

DG
 
DG

On another note; did you ask him if he would have removed his shoes when entering a Japanese person's home?  Again, the example of the "respect" one would pay another, and not even one having a religious connotation.
 
This is an interesting argument.

  I think IMHO that the officer was right but did it the wrong way. As an atheist and trust me there are atheist in fox holes, I have fought against the issue my entire carrier. Sometimes the only one who can change a law is the officer who takes it on the chin and gets the law changed that takes courage. He was wrong however because he should have not gone to the parade, once on the parade as many of you have said show some respect and I agree! I have been in the same boat (no pun intended) I refused to be on Church parade my entire career when I came upon the point were I needed to be on parade because of my position of command or for team unity I would step aside during the religious portion but still took my beret off out of respect.
  If the storey related is accurate then after telling his CO his CO needed to respect his desire if still ordered he should of done the AWOL thing and fought that way, now not AWOL from the unit but as I have done stood outside the church or stepped off the parade for that portion. As a side note my COs told me the reason they could not give me any special exemption was because the entire unit was atheist and would walk off then were would we be, my response was not in church finally. Oh and for the remeberance day argument that is not a church parade and removal of head dress is out of respect for the fallen and the fallens religious beliefs, I always said a few thankyous for the athiests who had fallen and didnt pray to a fictious god.

  So to sum up as has been said in the past nice idea poor execution!
 
Horse-hockey!!!...stupid idea, stupid execution....

I'm a non-believer also, however tomorrow morning after working all night I will be going to church to hear my children sing in the choir before I go to bed, and I will be respectful of everyone else's beliefs there even if they are not mine.
In 17 years in Corrections I have attended more than my share of Native Son's ceremonies and, once again, even though they are not my beliefs, I respected and followed, security permitting, whatever the service entailed.
...not to mention the RC masses I attend while visiting the in-laws in Quebec.

So, after all this babbling, I guess it comes down to simple respect, some have it and some don't.
 
Bruce - Can I borrow your baton for a minute? 

DG41 states,"I have no problem at all with being asked to remove headdress."
 
I didn't think commands given during parades were requests, I thought they were orders.  Once a parade begins, parade orders should be carried out in the prescribed manner and not ignored.  I can't remember ever seeing a debatable or a discretionary orders section in the Drill manual.

Thanks, Bruce, I'm done.
 
What about respect for the beliefs of atheists? Why should they be forced to conform to other religious customs?

All the power to atheists who choose to practice these customs, but those who do not want to conform should not be forced to.

Since an order to remove headdress has been ruled illegal, one who doesn't want to should not. Superiors can only ask for headdresses to be removed.
 
What are ya babbling about?......show us where you got that from?
 
Got what from? The illegal order part? Try the article in the first post:

The order required Lt. (N) Scott to make a public gesture of approval for a religious ceremony in which he did not believe, the three-judge panel stated. "The order was not lawful, and [Lt. (N) Scott's] disobedience of it was justified."
 
I would say the officers refusal to remove headdress flies in the face of logic and manners.
If the majority of those around you have removed their headdress, in my mind, logic dictates that you should remove yours even if only for confomity and aesthetics on a parade.

That being said, you're correct in saying that superiors can now only ask that headdress be removed of course and now people have a right to choose not to, but that doesn't change the fact that we have a right to complain about it and think/say what we want about the individual who choose to keep theirs on.
 
Che said:
but that doesn't change the fact that we have a right to complain about it and think/say what we want about the individual who choose to keep theirs on.

I'm a little confused about this snippet form your post.

What I am getting from it is that if someone is part of the "Whatchamcallit" religion and part of their religion is that they can not remove their headress or participate in anything Christian, then you feel you have a right to think and say whatever you want about them because you feel they chose too?

If I am wrong in my understanding of what you said, please clarify.
 
Actually, I had hoped that this topic had run its' course.....I disagree with any Atheist, or any other Religious or Non-Religious member of the CF, pulling of stupid egotistical selfish act such as this.  To me it is an "Order on Parade", that truthfully has no status of being Legal or Illegal, nor requirement to be declared by a Court as being Illegal - pure unadulterated waste of Court Time and Common Sense.  This was not an order to rape or kill some innocent Civilian or any other similar case.  It was a friggin Parade.  It was a mark of Respect.  He was in attendance; he follows the honoured format.  Just as I asked if this person would remove their shoes to enter a home of a Japanese family to respect their traditions, why is this simple act of respect such a focus of this "Idiot" and his perceived feelings of poor treatment by his superiors and peers?  He has now gained a new title in my books, a non-denominational title of "WANKER!".  He is a disgrace to the uniform that he wears, and the memory of those who have worn it before him.  

This was a waste of the Courts time.  I believe the Court made a PC call in judging in his favour and has opened the floodgates for even more insubordination in the CF.
 
Che said:
I would say the officers refusal to remove headdress flies in the face of logic and manners.
If the majority of those around you have removed their headdress, in my mind, logic dictates that you should remove yours even if only for confomity and aesthetics on a parade.

That being said, you're correct in saying that superiors can now only ask that headdress be removed of course and now people have a right to choose not to, but that doesn't change the fact that we have a right to complain about it and think/say what we want about the individual who choose to keep theirs on.

It's disappointing that members of an armed force - a team - would place themselves over and above their comrades based on individual desires.  I hate tuna fish but if I get a tuna fish in the box lunch I don't make a federal case about it.  I noticed last weekend one troop get right ballistic when a "vegetarian" lunch was not ordered special for them.  Well, it's great that our society is so accommodating but you are correct, Che, in that some respect needs to be paid back on occasion.  Vegetarian is a choice if you ask me, not a dietary requirement.  Not liking IMPs is also a choice; if that happens, you bring your own food, go hungry, or just eat it and concentrate on your work and not yourself.

I am all for individual liberties and freedoms, and think that can be applied within the military to a degree, but signing on the line is an agreement to forgo some of our individual liberties - lot of them, really - in pursuit of the greater good.  And it stymies me how anyone could honestly feel aggrieved by the simple act of removing one's hat.  We do the same to give three cheers for the CO at his change of command.  Even if we thought he was a prick.  It's a point of pride that we did as expected of us, even if in disagreement.

I think the dude with the hat probably had some self-worth issues he needed to resolve.

 
I think I'll go to the AJAG and have the command "Stand at Ease!" declared Illegal....  ::)
 
I'm saying that I have a right to say and think what I want as much as they have a right to think, say, even do what they want.
All within the realms of good taste and general politeness.

For instance if I feel refusing to remove his headress (while it is his legal right to not do so) is in bad taste, I'm going to both say and think "that's in poor taste, I probably don't like that chap."  and there's nothing wrong with that, I can think and say what I want within the realms of good taste and politeness.
At least these are the standards I hold myself to.

If someone wants to think I'm an idiot (and there are people who do shockingly) because I think there was a prophet from Arabia who chatted with God and wrote a book about it, then I say let them.
I choose to believe that, they choose to think I'm a twat because of it, cool.

Now, when it becomes in poor taste is when said individuals who disagree with other individuals punch me or this sailor in the face, or poop on our lawns, then you've got an argument for curbing their behaivour.

And of course Inside my head I think things about this sailor but thankfully the brain implant is malfunctioning and I'm still able to think those things, what I choose to let out is dependent on what my manners and tact dictate.
 
Once we strip away all the self propoganda and in defence of the team antics that have been posted we are almost all in agreement on the main points that are up for discussion. It would appear the majority feel that while you are on the parade it should be all for one and one for all. The issue is the CF is not currently all for one, it started when they allowed Sikhs to were religious artifacts in uniform back in 87.  

There is no argument on if it is legal or not its not so for all the holier than though comments I seen on this post think about it you now advocating braking a rule were as before you were berating some one for doing same in the opposite context.
 
Che said:
I'm saying that I have a right to say and think what I want as much as they have a right to think, say, even do what they want.
All within the realms of good taste and general politeness.

For instance if I feel refusing to remove his headress (while it is his legal right to not do so) is in bad taste, I'm going to both say and think "that's in poor taste, I probably don't like that chap."   and there's nothing wrong with that, I can think and say what I want within the realms of good taste and politeness.
At least these are the standards I hold myself to.

Thank you for clarifying that for me. I was not 100% sure what you were getting at, so I appreciate the clarification.
 
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