- Reaction score
- 6,368
- Points
- 1,360
MOD POST............when I agreed to open this thread it was for MEANINGFUL discussion, if I wish to hear "He Said, She Said", I will rent the Kevin Bacon movie.
Iterator said:No. I'm stating that the religious content of CF ceremonies are a liability and also that the government and the CF should get out of the business of subsidizing religions.
The argument is a simple one to follow, you (not the literal you) have rights, but you (not the literal you) must accept certain limitations on your (not the literal your) ability to access these rights due to your (not the literal your) service in the CF.
Imagination noted. Now if you could apply that energy to removing the religious content in military ceremonies (a recognized fault), then the problem would be solved. Sure, a vocal minority will complain, but sometimes you have to stand up to that when you're doing the right thing.
Bruce Monkhouse said:MOD POST............when I agreed to open this thread it was for MEANINGFUL discussion, if I wish to hear "He Said, She Said", I will rent the Kevin Bacon movie.
How so are they a liability? Because you say so or don't agree with it?Iterator said:No. I'm stating that the religious content of CF ceremonies are a liability
Absolutely agreed and I live this daily. However, the CF accomodates those of ALL religions and beliefs, including non-believers such as myself. Therefore we are all enjoying equal opportunity, access and freedom to practice what we believe (or don't believe) currently. Yourself included. No one's denied anything. No one's put out. What's the problem?Iterator said:The argument is a simple one to follow, you (not the literal you) have rights, but you (not the literal you) must accept certain limitations on your (not the literal your) ability to access these rights due to your (not the literal your) service in the CF.
Iterator, I AM a member of the minority. I own a set of those dogtags marked "NRE." I am not complaining. That religiousness or spirituality is included in CF ceremonies is a "recognized fault" as you choose to call it...is a view held by only a very select minority of those in the NRE minority. Don't speak for me because I certainly do not view the tolerance of others beliefs as a recognized fault. I, as a non-believer, totally disagree with your view that you are "doing the right thing" on my behalf.Iterator said:Imagination noted. Now if you could apply that energy to removing the religious content in military ceremonies (a recognized fault), then the problem would be solved. Sure, a vocal minority will complain, but sometimes you have to stand up to that when you're doing the right thing.
Michael O'Leary said:...Perhaps the "vocal minority" that needs to be stood up to are those who would strip the majority of their right to religious content... ...
Emenince Grise said:...Kindly be specific as to how religious faith is a liability to the CF. ...
The Librarian said:...How so are they a liability?...
The Librarian said:That religiousness or spirituality is included in CF ceremonies is a "recognized fault" as you choose to call it...is a view held by only a very select minority of those in the NRE minority. ...
Emenince Grise said:...As for "subsidizing religions", other than a few tax credits, how does the government subsidize religion?...
Emenince Grise said:...How can you suggest it is a "vocal minority" when people of identifiable religious faith are in the majority of Canadian society and, if the CF represents that society, the CF as well?...
The Librarian said:...Therefore we are all enjoying equal opportunity, access and freedom to practice what we believe (or don't believe) currently. ...What's the problem?...
medicineman said:...By the way, every Sunday when I drive by the Base Chapels here, the cars are parked well into the overflow areas and down the road - they're apparently well used here....
Iterator said:I do not believe that you have the right to demand that your employer provide you with religious services.
Just one more reason why there is no need for the CF to be dishing out funds for this - this is something that can be handled within the local community.
The Librarian said:...And the local community is not deployed overseas is it? ...
The Librarian said:...And they, like you, profess to speak on my NRE asses behalf. Well, you don't. You are NOT that important in the grand scheme of things, and quite frankly, I'm sick and tired of all the people who profess to speak for others. You speak ONLY for yourself. Period. Full stop. Build a bridge, get over it, and carry on....
There are more occupations than just the CF that are employed in isolated locations, yet without the need to employ a padre. If the CF feels that it must bow to the few members who can't make it a few months without visiting a padre, then the service can be provided in a similar fashion as the Tim Horton's (a space will be provided - but not within the CF).
Perhaps some attention to detail might help.Iterator said:I'm not sure how to address this, you (the literal you) have brought it up a couple of times, but I still have no idea what you are talking about. Perhaps you can quote where I have done what you are suggesting. Other than that I can't help you with the problem you feel you are experiencing.
The Librarian said:..You're not getting me?? Hello!! It is the FEW who want it removed. NOT the other way around....
The Librarian said:Somehow, it is my guess that even were agnostics/atheists or other allowed to remain in their headdress as are others whose religious beliefs require them to keep their headdress in place, thus making everybody happy (and meeting the judge's requirements too I might add...) you'd have problems with that too and it still would be good enough to satisfy you.
The Librarian said:...I don't view it as a religious act but rather as an act of remembrance and a sign of my respect for them....
and I have never known a majority of the serving members I knew, to be incapable of attending to their own religious needs.
No, if the very select few (ie the literal you) who have a problem with religion and can't manage to make it through the parade if a padre's present, bitching about it for weeks upon end as if your life will come to an end because of it, could learn that offering words of comfort for the fallen is not meant as an offense to you...then there wouldn't be a problem. It's not that difficult to do...I've done it often.And if the few, who somehow can't make it through the parade without the padre, or being told when they should pray, could figure this out, then there wouldn't be a problem.
Iterator said:There are more occupations than just the CF that are employed in isolated locations, yet without the need to employ a padre. If the CF feels that it must bow to the few members who can't make it a few months without visiting a padre, then the service can be provided in a similar fashion as the Tim Horton's (a space will be provided - but not within the CF).
Iterator said:I do not believe that you have the right to demand that your employer provide you with religious services.
mainerjohnthomas said:What the chaplains provide no civilian employer provides.
There are not really a lot of civvie professions that deal in death, that expect to lose coworkers on a regular basis and still keep on with the job, whose families learn to fear the sight of a black staff car entering the PMQ's when all the soldiers are deployed because the staff officer and chaplain carry news of the dead.
No. To those who whine about how no civvie employer does this, no civvie employer does that, let me ask you, has any of your civvie employers ever asked you to ignore the dead body of a friend because there is a job to do, and it will not be safe to approach until you have secured the whole area? No? It sometimes comes with our job. Any civvie employer keep you from seeing your wife and family for months at a time while subjecting you to rocket attack in your sleep? No? The "any civie employer" standard seems to fail the test of applicability to our profession.
I remember getting a supoena to testify in family court about some real crap from my childhood. I was on deployment at the time and the RSM sent me to the chaplains office. On his desk were two sets of paperwork. One set of orders placing me on compassionate leave and routing me home to deal with this. One set of orders classified me as requried for the needs of the needs of the service and not available for the court proceedings. We had a long talk about lots of stuff. When I left I was a lot safer to be around, and had my head in a good place for making the decision about what to do next. The Padres deal with our crap, keep our heads, our hearts and whatnot together in ways most civvie shrinks and priests can't, for outside of police psychologists, there aren't really a lot of people who understand the stuff we have to deal with.
Don't go whining that the CF isn't required to provide anything that your civvie employer doesn't provide. On civvie side now I go home to my wife every night, can seek religious counsell with my local priests, am protected by law from being sent into any hazardous situation, and if my boss gives me an order I don't like I can tell him to blow me. This doesn't resemble my time in the CF much at all. Different world, different needs.