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Reconstitution

Jesus what hot garbage.

First off, those numbers make no sense. Are we short? Yes. Are we short by over 50% (34k out of 70k)? No fucking way.

Then there are these hot takes:


We didn't lose "many", we lost "a few".


I can tell you that right now we have several allies taking us very seriously and looking to create closer and stronger relationships with us than ever before.


Uhh... I can think of a few worse periods, bruh.



This Redman person sounds like he's lost all objectivity and has an unhealthy hate for the liberals:

No, dude, you're completely wrong. At least in the Navy, they spend far more time on actual training and maintenance than on 'talking about pronouns."

Then the author herself:


Those aren't "woke" rules! Those have nothing to do with "woke"!

God I hate the Western Standard.
Lumber...for the first time in a long time...I think we are totally on the same page šŸ˜…ā¤ļøšŸ„‚



- Is Redman person currently serving? If so, don't commenting on our current PM to be in bad form? (Even if he is a walking human poop sack...)

- The number I keep hearing from a variety of sources is we are short approximately 16,000 members. That's a lot! No need to frighten us with even bigger numbers if it isn't the case...16,000 short is a good challenge we need to work towards


- We talk about 'old and outdated equipment' as being a major deterrance to people joining up. And that seems to be the impression the media is putting out there for the public...

But our vehicle fleets are fairly new? (don't mind the burning LS over there, it came out of the factory like that...)

And aircraft fleets are fairly new? - or at least look fairly new... (C-130J, fancy Chinooks, will soon have brand new F-35's, new Polaris replacements are inbound wirh the first one already painted & accepted I believe, etc)



Our baseline budget now is bigger than it was in 2008...

I know our procurement is a 'buy eveything at once then wait 20 years to replace it' model, but surely our budget supports keeping the kit fairly modern?
 
I wonder how much things have improved since this audit in 2016, and who will get fired if there's been no improvement ;)

1694127794288.png

Report 5ā€”Canadian Armed Forces Recruitment and Retentionā€”National Defence​

Findings, Recommendations, and Responses​

Reaching targets​

Overall message​

5.11Overall, we found that the total number of Regular Force members had decreased, and that there had been a growing gap between the number of members needed and those who were fully trained. In our opinion, it is unlikely that the Regular Force will be able to reach the desired number of members by the 2018ā€“19 fiscal year as planned. We also found that although the Canadian Armed Forces had established a goal of 25 percent for the representation of women, it did not set specific targets by occupation, nor did it have a strategy to achieve this goal.

5.12We found that although the Regular Force had mechanisms in place to define its recruiting needs, those needs were not reflected in recruitment plans and targets. Instead, recruitment targets were based on National Defenceā€™s capacity to process applications and enrol and train new members. Furthermore, we found that the total recruitment targets had been met by enrolling more members than had been set as targets in some occupations, leaving other occupations significantly below the required number of personnel.

5.13This is important because the Canadian Armed Forces needs a sufficient number of trained members in the right balance of occupations to maintain its military capability and accomplish the missions set out in the Canada First Defence Strategy.

What we concluded​

We concluded that the Canadian Armed Forces implemented systems and practices to recruit, train, and retain the members it needed, but, as noted in this report, many of these systems and practices did not meet its needs or achieve its objectives.

Recruiting targets were set below the Regular Forceā€™s needs. For certain occupations, insufficient numbers of applicants were attracted and processed. In addition, the process placed more emphasis on the Canadian Armed Forcesā€™ timelines and capacities than on applicantsā€™ needs, contributing to some prospective employees leaving the process and others being rejected. Once applicants are enrolled as members, lengthy training times can lead to frustration and attrition, so it is important to track new members with the goal of improving timeliness. Although the Regular Force knew the causes of attrition, it had not implemented or revised its most recent retention strategy.

In order to achieve the required number of trained members across occupations, the Regular Force must examine its methods of attracting and recruiting candidates, and training and retaining members. It must manage all phases of the process for each occupation. It should tailor and implement different approaches for each occupation to address each occupationā€™s unique challenges.

What we found​

Reaching targets​

Overall, we found that the total number of Regular Force members had decreased, and that there had been a growing gap between the number of members needed and those who were fully trained. In our opinion, it is unlikely that the Regular Force will be able to reach the desired number of members by the 2018ā€“19 fiscal year as planned. We also found that although the Canadian Armed Forces had established a goal of 25 percent for the representation of women, it did not set specific targets by occupation, nor did it have a strategy to achieve this goal.

We found that although the Regular Force had mechanisms in place to define its recruiting needs, those needs were not reflected in recruitment plans and targets. Instead, recruitment targets were based on National Defenceā€™s capacity to process applications and enrol and train new members. Furthermore, we found that the total recruitment targets had been met by enrolling more members than had been set as targets in some occupations, leaving other occupations significantly below the required number of personnel.

This is important because the Canadian Armed Forces needs a sufficient number of trained members in the right balance of occupations to maintain its military capability and accomplish the missions set out in the Canada First Defence Strategy.

Getting and developing the right people​

Overall, we found that the Regular Force was unable to attract a sufficient number of qualified applicants for some occupations. Recruiters did not always have the support needed to provide the necessary information to applicants. We also found that certain practices in the recruitment process prevented qualified candidates from being enrolled. Once recruits were enrolled, they had minimal waiting times for basic training, but they had considerable waiting times for some occupational training. In addition, the Regular Force lacked sufficient mechanisms to oversee membersā€™ progress in training programs.

This is important because the manner in which the process for applicants is carried out and new recruits are trained has a large impact on how long they will stay in the Canadian Armed Forces. It is also more cost-effective to keep applicants and new trainees in the process, rather than to lose them and have to start over with new members.

Keeping the right people​

Overall, we found that the Regular Force experienced high levels of attrition in some occupations. Although it knew the causes of attrition, the Regular Force had not implemented its most recent overall retention strategy, nor had it developed specific strategies to respond to the challenges of each occupation.

This finding matters because the militaryā€™s operational capability depends on the Canadian Armed Forcesā€™ ability to retain highly specialized, trained, and experienced military personnel on a long-term basis. It is also important because training and developing people is expensive, particularly in certain occupations; it is therefore more cost-effective for National Defence if, once trained, members stay with the Canadian Armed Forces.


 
I remember seeing this years ago and wondering why people weren't being fired wholesale.

"Reconstitution" suggest a paradigm shift in recruiting and individual training but I have yet to see something in the public domain which says: "Here's what we're doing." How can you hope to rebuild without a massive recruiting campaign of billboards, announcements, TV and internet advertising and a massive surge to decentralize individual training to institutions capable of handling it? All I here out here in Lake Wobegon North (well SE actually) is crickets. All the committee meetings and staff papers in Ottawa--I'm assuming that there actually are some--won't get Civilian Bloggins to sign on.

šŸ»
 
- Is Redman person currently serving? If so, don't commenting on our current PM to be in bad form? (Even if he is a walking human poop sack...)

No, according to his bio Dave Redman retired from the CAF around 2000 and went to work for the Alberta Gov't in emergency management for several years. I recall him from Lahr in the early 90s when the brigade and later the base was closing; he was a RCEME LCol then.

As for the article, I take it with a grain of salt. Not so much for the numbers that he is quoted as "having heard", but for the author of the article, Linda Slobodian; though a longtime journalist (who I recall reading when she was with the Calgary Herald years ago), does seem to have adopted the "Western Standard" point of view hyperbole in all her articles for them.

I was more interested in the comment about LCol (ret'd) Redman's recent testimony (Oct last year) to the Commons National Defence Committee. While I would not agree with all (or most all) of LCol Redman's conclusions in the many opinion pieces he wrote during the pandemic, I would recommend reading his committee testimony as it touches on the use of CAF resources during disaster.

 
But our vehicle fleets are fairly new? (don't mind the burning LS over there, it came out of the factory like that...)

And aircraft fleets are fairly new? - or at least look fairly new... (C-130J, fancy Chinooks, will soon have brand new F-35's, new Polaris replacements are inbound wirh the first one already painted & accepted I believe, etc)
The fighting Navy, not the support Navy (I include AOPS as support) is the one that is hurting big time and kids joining now will be Master Killicks at best (if not a P1) when they will sail in HMCS Not yet named :sneaky:.
 
Further, the 'fighting Navy' (per FSTO above) generally eschews modern technology, preferring the 'tried and true'. So the ships generally get built with the 'tried and true' technology available at the time the specifications for construction were written. Since it could be ten years from spec writing to commissioning, even new ships have old technology.

For perspective, old does not always mean bad. I sailed on the old steamer ships that basically had post-WWII technology. Much of it was simple and robust. However, over time (decades), it became obsolete and unmaintainable.
 
Further, the 'fighting Navy' (per FSTO above) generally eschews modern technology, preferring the 'tried and true'. So the ships generally get built with the 'tried and true' technology available at the time the specifications for construction were written. Since it could be ten years from spec writing to commissioning, even new ships have old technology.

For perspective, old does not always mean bad. I sailed on the old steamer ships that basically had post-WWII technology. Much of it was simple and robust. However, over time (decades), it became obsolete and unmaintainable.
And now starts the fight between "Tried and True" vs "Transformational and Forward Looking". I guess that is why (I hope) we are building ships with room to install the "Transformational" while "TnT" allows you to do all the Maritime traditional roles and test the whizz bang stuff to ensure the brochures deliver 10% of the bullshit promised.
 
For perspective, old does not always mean bad. I sailed on the old steamer ships that basically had post-WWII technology. Much of it was simple and robust. However, over time (decades), it became obsolete and unmaintainable.

This is a big issue. And often we drive our ships for longer than industry will support them. Meaning we had systems on the tanker that just werent supported by industry anymore. They had moved on to more modern and better equipment.

I know tradition is the anchor, pun not intended, of Navies but sometimes its industry that will drag us kicking and screaming into the present.
 
Meaning we had systems on the tanker that just weren't supported by industry anymore.
In Protecteur, we were alongside in San Diego and there was a part that needed to be found to enable us to sail. The Stokers went to their friends in the yard and were told that nobody makes those parts anymore, but there was a retired dockie who used to work on the same machinery installed in Pro. So they went down to his machine shop in Southern Diego and he was able to fabricate the part to get us underway. That was in 2000.
 
Further, the 'fighting Navy' (per FSTO above) generally eschews modern technology, preferring the 'tried and true'. So the ships generally get built with the 'tried and true' technology available at the time the specifications for construction were written. Since it could be ten years from spec writing to commissioning, even new ships have old technology.

For perspective, old does not always mean bad. I sailed on the old steamer ships that basically had post-WWII technology. Much of it was simple and robust. However, over time (decades), it became obsolete and unmaintainable.
That's not entirely true; we leaned out hugely on automation and integration with the IMCS design and IPMS upgrade, to the point where we are actually losing some functionality with the T26 design and class rules with how systems are separated.

I would agree though that we are a lot more stringent on the 'Tried' part, what the commercial side accepts for performance testing is a bit questionable, and the number of people who think a nice looking computer simulation represents reality on some really complex things like fire is mind boggling.
 
This is a big issue. And often we drive our ships for longer than industry will support them. Meaning we had systems on the tanker that just werent supported by industry anymore. They had moved on to more modern and better equipment.

I know tradition is the anchor, pun not intended, of Navies but sometimes its industry that will drag us kicking and screaming into the present.
A lot of that is down to end of life equipment though being used past it's life. For the old steam system it was actually still fairly widely used in heavy industry because of the cost and life of it, and the fabled valve bought off ebay was from a mining company that had some spares they were getting rid of after shutting down an old facility.

Obsolescence is a killer, and when you have a huge amount of stuff that is breaking for the first time in 30 years, that's when you find out that the OEM no longer supports it and may not exist. We don't do a good job of monitoring that kind of thing, but we also don't have people to do that specifically, and it's far enough down the LCMM priority list that it only previously came up as a more reactive issue.

It's not like there isn't replacements avaialble, it's that they just don't necessarily have the same fit/form. A valve that is 1" wider means pipework with welding, (vice unbolting/bolting) and that always snowballs. It's also usually working around a lot of other kit and buried behind wiring etc so not a lot of fun.
 
...much of which was installed over time and perhaps not fully documented...

"What does this cabling do?"
The 280's were notorious with miles of cabling cut off at both ends when old kit taken out and new kit installed.
 
...much of which was installed over time and perhaps not fully documented...

"What does this cabling do?"
Cable management is for losers! Winners damn the torpedos!

Nothing quite like knowing the time and effort it takes to run cabling to the spec, do all the EMI testing etc, and then have some assclown stuff a cat 5 line into a new hole in a water/smoke tight bulkhead penetration for 'quality of life'. If you turn the lights off in a watertight compartment usually lots of light coming through holes randomly put all over the place.

The RCN as an institution is a smooth brain, that excels at creating a lot of impediments to actually fixing things so we end up bandaging over bandaids long enough that they end up painted over and tell ourselves it's a new ship that is totally combat capable (as long as we don't take any combat damage, big waves, rough seas etc)
 
A lot of that is down to end of life equipment though being used past it's life. For the old steam system it was actually still fairly widely used in heavy industry because of the cost and life of it, and the fabled valve bought off ebay was from a mining company that had some spares they were getting rid of after shutting down an old facility.

Obsolescence is a killer, and when you have a huge amount of stuff that is breaking for the first time in 30 years, that's when you find out that the OEM no longer supports it and may not exist. We don't do a good job of monitoring that kind of thing, but we also don't have people to do that specifically, and it's far enough down the LCMM priority list that it only previously came up as a more reactive issue.
The fact that we should have all those experts in Ottawa and across the country who should be monitoring this sort of thing makes it all the worse. If the Military was a company it would have shut its doors time and time again.
It's not like there isn't replacements avaialble, it's that they just don't necessarily have the same fit/form. A valve that is 1" wider means pipework with welding, (vice unbolting/bolting) and that always snowballs. It's also usually working around a lot of other kit and buried behind wiring etc so not a lot of fun.
I wonder why they would not have a valve built. There are lots of Canadian companies who manufacture valves of all size and types and material.
 
My favourite was the Frigates converting some seawater ballast tanks to diesel tanks, which seemed to be done very haphazardly. Nothing like the bursting disk intended for a water system breaking a flooding a living quarters with diesel fumes due to the vent being strategically located there.

Poorly planned upgrades are worse than no upgrade in many cases.
 
In Protecteur, we were alongside in San Diego and there was a part that needed to be found to enable us to sail. The Stokers went to their friends in the yard and were told that nobody makes those parts anymore, but there was a retired dockie who used to work on the same machinery installed in Pro. So they went down to his machine shop in Southern Diego and he was able to fabricate the part to get us underway. That was in 2000.
I very rarely say this, but...geezus... šŸ˜®
 
The fact that we should have all those experts in Ottawa and across the country who should be monitoring this sort of thing makes it all the worse. If the Military was a company it would have shut its doors time and time again.

I wonder why they would not have a valve built. There are lots of Canadian companies who manufacture valves of all size and types and material.
Yes, why didn't we think of that? I guess we were just sitting on our thumbs having coffee instead of working. I guess you missed the part where it's too far down our list of things to get done to actively manage it, as well as the previous bit that we are having first time failures for parts that were original to build, and have no actual cataloging info so recreating it from scratch.

It's not like they have uncommon specifications and additional requirements like grade 1 shock, so should be really easy for anyone to build.

There aren't many people that actually make big valves, and the ones that do are busy. Wait time for some things is in years, even with the valve manufacturer that is now providing our stock (after a few years of prototyping and testing). Others are still recovering from COVID supply chain disruptions, and supplying bigger customers first.
 
I've never had a real interest in joining the Navy (very small parts of the Navy interest me to the point I could see myself doing it as a career -- no disrespect intended, I just grew up in the prairies so oceans weren't really a thing during my childhood)

But after reading the above posts...yeah nah, li don't wanna join the Navy šŸ˜• lol
 
Yes, why didn't we think of that? I guess we were just sitting on our thumbs having coffee instead of working. I guess you missed the part where it's too far down our list of things to get done to actively manage it, as well as the previous bit that we are having first time failures for parts that were original to build, and have no actual cataloging info so recreating it from scratch.

It's not like they have uncommon specifications and additional requirements like grade 1 shock, so should be really easy for anyone to build.

There aren't many people that actually make big valves, and the ones that do are busy. Wait time for some things is in years, even with the valve manufacturer that is now providing our stock (after a few years of prototyping and testing). Others are still recovering from COVID supply chain disruptions, and supplying bigger customers first.
I personally know three for sure and maybe two more companies within 100kmwho can build valves to what ever spec you want. They would be willing to build one or two offs. They would charge for them but they would build them.

More then likely not on the supplier list and definitely not a central eastern company.

Someone mentioned earlier that they had some US shop make them a fitting or what not to get them back up and running.
How do we not have that capability?

We have large/medium/small machine shops across this country with experience making all kinds of one off things for various industries. Somehow the Canadian Navy has a hard time getting things. Sounds like the Navy and BC ferries have the same supply and manufacturers issues.
 
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