Reconstitution

[Navy_Pete]

I've always been cognisant of the UoS provisions and the conflicting CHRC and Charter challenges to that. I always thought that UoS was one of those self evident things but give a bunch of legislative draftsmen and some lawyers a minute and they can set common sense on its head.

At the same time being able to keep wounded veterans or even veterans that DND has simply invested time and money on available to the system without undermining UoS would also be of value. I would have thought of some time of transfer system to the Civil Service with flow through benefits wouldn't be impossible to make happen. Whether they are employed back with DND or elsewhere is immaterial.

That reminds me though when I retired in 2009, I thought that the number of civil servants that I knew of on "stress leave" seemed pretty high. I'm not thinking of veteran PTSD here, I'm thinking civil servants in cubicles. How's that going these days?

The actual process to go from mil to civil service is pretty easy, and there is even incentives to hire veterans. Medically released CAF members are on the highest priority list, and normal retirements/releases are a secondary tier but still on a priority hire list. If you find a qualified candidate you can effectively directly hire them (after jumping through HR hoops).

The issue is more the lack of SWE, lack of HR people to process the hires, and in some cases, credentialism. You can do the same job in the CAF, but maybe not be able to do it as a public servant if the position requires something like an engineering degree (because of the classification). Which is weird, because you can get a P.Eng without it with equivalent experience.

Still a fair number of people on stress leave, and more that should be on stress leave, but when you are one person with the workload of 3-4, with no hope for a change like a posting, that grinds people down over time. I'm sure there are fakes, but have met a lot of dedicated PSs, who genuinely are passionate about doing their job properly so that the CAF has the tools they need, but when you can't buy spares, get contracts in place or otherwise do your job because of lack of funding, bureaucratic hurdles, multi-department empire building, etc that makes the overwork even worse.

I think the term for it is 'moral injury', but burnt out is burnt out, regardless if you are on a front line unit or in a cubicle..

 

[daftandbarmy]

The actual process to go from mil to civil service is pretty easy, and there is even incentives to hire veterans. Medically released CAF members are on the highest priority list, and normal retirements/releases are a secondary tier but still on a priority hire list. If you find a qualified candidate you can effectively directly hire them (after jumping through HR hoops).

The issue is more the lack of SWE, lack of HR people to process the hires, and in some cases, credentialism. You can do the same job in the CAF, but maybe not be able to do it as a public servant if the position requires something like an engineering degree (because of the classification). Which is weird, because you can get a P.Eng without it with equivalent experience.

Still a fair number of people on stress leave, and more that should be on stress leave, but when you are one person with the workload of 3-4, with no hope for a change like a posting, that grinds people down over time. I'm sure there are fakes, but have met a lot of dedicated PSs, who genuinely are passionate about doing their job properly so that the CAF has the tools they need, but when you can't buy spares, get contracts in place or otherwise do your job because of lack of funding, bureaucratic hurdles, multi-department empire building, etc that makes the overwork even worse.

I think the term for it is 'moral injury', but burnt out is burnt out, regardless if you are on a front line unit or in a cubicle..

Luckily, the consulting industry is helping out


The revelation that the Canadian government spent CA$15 billion (USD$11.2 billion) on consultant contracts in the 2021-2022 fiscal year has dogged Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s administration all through 2023.

Breaking the billion-dollar addiction to consultants in government - 360

Private consultancy companies have governments addicted to their services and the bill continues to balloon year on year, writes Denis Saint-Martin and Chris Hurl.

360info.org

 

[childs56]

The actual process to go from mil to civil service is pretty easy, and there is even incentives to hire veterans. Medically released CAF members are on the highest priority list, and normal retirements/releases are a secondary tier but still on a priority hire list. If you find a qualified candidate you can effectively directly hire them (after jumping through HR hoops).

The issue is more the lack of SWE, lack of HR people to process the hires, and in some cases, credentialism. You can do the same job in the CAF, but maybe not be able to do it as a public servant if the position requires something like an engineering degree (because of the classification). Which is weird, because you can get a P.Eng without it with equivalent experience.

Still a fair number of people on stress leave, and more that should be on stress leave, but when you are one person with the workload of 3-4, with no hope for a change like a posting, that grinds people down over time.

Why should more be on stress leave? If the job is that hard or that difficult then find a new job.


'm sure there are fakes, but have met a lot of dedicated PSs, who genuinely are passionate about doing their job properly so that the CAF has the tools they need, but when you can't buy spares, get contracts in place or otherwise do your job because of lack of funding, bureaucratic hurdles, multi-department empire building, etc that makes the overwork even worse.

I think the term for it is 'moral injury', but burnt out is burnt out, regardless if you are on a front line unit or in a cubicle..

most if not all these issues have been created by the Public service themselves over the years. That "moral injury" has been self inflicted over the decades of empire building. Slowly making niche jobs specific to what they thought was good to do and create a safety net.
To many involved have been part of changing/modify the procurement process to fit their task. They called this stream lining. All the while it was lining the pockets of some individuals.
One thing I like about private companies is if they are loosing to much money they can adapt to another process easier then the government does.

Luckily, the consulting industry is helping out

Surprise that more then a few make a specific job task while working the public service, to turn around and say it is not workable. To turn around and magically do the same job as a contractor for more money.
Private industry does this lots also, especially with government contracts.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Surprise that more then a few make a specific job task while working the public service, to turn around and say it is not workable. To turn around and magically do the same job as a contractor for more money.
Private industry does this lots also, especially with government contracts.

When you can't fire people for non-performance it's easier to hire outsiders to get the work done, at an extra coast, it seems.

 

[FJAG]

I'm sure there are fakes,

You know, it's not really them I'm concerned about. They could be dealt with assuming one had the time and resources to do that - which most don't.

Small anecdote. When I was on Class B for three years I had a small team that I was responsible for plus another team that we needed to interact with as the system we were building would end up being theirs to run when we were done. That second team had hired a new manager about half way through my tour. Almost immediately that the new manager arrived they went on a stress leave program that left them in the office about one day a week and usually behind a closed door. That locked the position and basically downloaded management functions onto junior programmers who already had a pretty heavy workload doing their own jobs. Since there did not seem to be any end in sight for their situation, morale in that team dropped dramatically and some good, and in fact critical, people started looking elsewhere for positions.

Coming from a civilian practice, I was quite frustrated at what I was seeing. Effectively, if you can't function in a civilian job, you're moved out of it. Yes, civilians are subject to the Charter and various HRCs but accommodation does not mean letting someone continue in a job getting 100% pay for 10% productivity especially in managerial positions.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Why should more be on stress leave? If the job is that hard or that difficult then find a new job

'If they are overworked just find a new job'

'WHy do things take so long'

You have the empathy of a turnip mate. Do you not see how the thing you complain about so much might be related? Overworked people either go somewhere else or burn out, and either way things don't get done, bins stay empty, projects don't progress. Glad you know all the solutions for someone who has never tried doing it.

Buying shit isn't niche. Project management isn't niche. Doing it in the GoC with all the TBS rules, PSPC rules, international treaties, domestic laws and regulations is niche.

It's not like front line public servants want to jump through 34 approval gates either, that's just the nature of the beast. Don't take out your ignorant lumping of the entire government on the thousands of people struggling through the necessary bullshit to get things done.

It's not like contractors don't have to jump through the same hoops at some point, and at some point someone still has to manage whatever the contract is, which includes all the bureacratic hoops to get contracts in place, get funding, make payments etc.

I've done similar things on the private side, and it's far more LOE within the government to get the same things done with much more restrictions on what you are allowed to do. People that can do it in the PS that switch to private usually are laughing because it's actually much easier.

 

[Navy_Pete]

You know, it's not really them I'm concerned about. They could be dealt with assuming one had the time and resources to do that - which most don't.

Small anecdote. When I was on Class B for three years I had a small team that I was responsible for plus another team that we needed to interact with as the system we were building would end up being theirs to run when we were done. That second team had hired a new manager about half way through my tour. Almost immediately that the new manager arrived they went on a stress leave program that left them in the office about one day a week and usually behind a closed door. That locked the position and basically downloaded management functions onto junior programmers who already had a pretty heavy workload doing their own jobs. Since there did not seem to be any end in sight for their situation, morale in that team dropped dramatically and some good, and in fact critical, people started looking elsewhere for positions.

Coming from a civilian practice, I was quite frustrated at what I was seeing. Effectively, if you can't function in a civilian job, you're moved out of it. Yes, civilians are subject to the Charter and various HRCs but accommodation does not mean letting someone continue in a job getting 100% pay for 10% productivity especially in managerial positions.

I lived through that for a few years; but it's no different than a CAF member in a position but not actually doing it for any number of reasons (taskings, MELs etc). We had multiple PS and CAF positions filled on paper but vacant in reality. Parental leave is another similar situation where you can't backfill.

Fortunately the CAF recognized that and decreased the expectations of what we could get done accordingly, and didn't create any new work for us. /s

When it's one in 50 not so bad, when it's 4 out of 15 (with 5 other vacancies) it was unsustainable.

 

[FJAG]

I've done similar things on the private side, and it's far more LOE within the government to get the same things done with much more restrictions on what you are allowed to do. People that can do it in the PS that switch to private usually are laughing because it's actually much easier.

I absolutely agree with that but one should never underestimate the impact that government imposed regulations can gum up the civilian side as well. Usually elected officials make laws giving the bureaucracy the power to make regulations. The bureaucratic fetish to centrally control everything is strong.

Fortunately the CAF recognized that and decreased the expectations of what we could get done accordingly, and didn't create any new work for us. /s

Only an industry that doesn't function on a profit basis can say "things are crap, let's produce less." Sigh.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I absolutely agree with that but one should never underestimate the impact that government imposed regulations can gum up the civilian side as well. Usually elected officials make laws giving the bureaucracy the power to make regulations. The bureaucratic fetish to centrally control everything is strong.

Only an industry that doesn't function on a profit basis can say "things are crap, let's produce less." Sigh.

For sure, I've plugged through that stuff while volunteering for non-profits, and similarly helped private companies work through some of the innovation grants recently.

The second bit was sarcasm; they actually gave us additional work that would have struggled to get through with the whole team, let alone down to a third of the strength. Tried for a bit, but eventually had to cry uncle. The most frustrating thing was there was numerous briefings upwards leading up to that the previous workload was unsustainable and would break people/get them to quit; it got worse and broke a few people (with a few more retiring/moving onto other jobs). Even then they gave us more work, until we finally just stopped trying to keep up and started just briefing up all the stuff we weren't doing. Took about two years to rebuild the team.

 

[childs56]

'If they are overworked just find a new job'

'WHy do things take so long'

You have the empathy of a turnip mate. Do you not see how the thing you complain about so much might be related? Overworked people either go somewhere else or burn out, and either way things

It's not like front line public servants want to jump through 34 approval gates either, that's just the nature of the beast. Don't take out your ignorant lumping of the entire government on the thousands of people struggling through the necessary bullshit to get things done.

It's not like contractors don't have to jump through the same hoops at some point, and at some point someone still has to manage whatever the contract is, which includes all the bureacratic hoops to get contracts in place, get funding, make payments etc.

I've done similar things on the private side, and it's far more LOE within the government to get the same things done with much more restrictions on what you are allowed to do. People that can do

'If they are overworked just find a new job'

'WHy do things take so long'

You have the empathy of a turnip mate.

Dont like the grass this side of the fence the other side is just as good.
Empathy is one thing. Reality of people who can't handle a job is another thing.
If the job has so many stressors that you need to be off on stress leave then maybe the job isnt for you.
The employer has the obligation to ensure you are safe to return to work. If nothing has changed at work, a person has not figured out how to manage the job taks then it mighr be time to move on.
if enough people leave then maybe the issues will be resolved. If not i guess there is alsways the contracting route.

Do you not see how the thing you complain about so much might be related?

lol everything is related. But one person taking stress leave over work situation does not fix or alleviate the work load on others. This may be and often is causing more stress work load on others.



orked people either go somewhere else or burn out, and either way things don't get done, bins stay empty, projects don't progress. Glad you know all the solutions for someone who has never tried doing it.

Some how magically those who go on to become contractors magically make those issues dissappear.

Buying shit isn't niche.

for the government it is very niche.

Project management isn't niche.

Again for the government is niche

Doing it in the GoC with all the TBS rules, PSPC rules, international treaties, domestic laws and regulations is niche.

Except they can't even buy a air line hose with out a pile of paper work and a headache. It is a line of bureaucracy that does not need to be there. But was put in place to protect jobs.

It's not like front line public servants want to jump through 34 approval gates either, that's just the nature of the beast.

Nope but that is a system put in place over the years by the same PS that has to wade through the process.

Don't take out your ignorant lumping of the entire government on the thousands of people struggling through the necessary bullshit to get things done.

Not ignorant one bit. I understand the system and how many hurdles are in the way to get things done. But again the very same PS who has a hard time getting things done are the same ones who fought for the processes to be in place.

It's not like contractors don't have to jump through the same hoops at some point, and at some point someone still has to manage whatever the contract is, which includes all the bureacratic hoops to get contracts in place, get funding, make payments etc.

Yes but point is for some reason people who jump ship to the contractor world majically dont need to go on stress leave to do the same or simialr job. Go figure add another 20-40g to the bottom line makes some issues acceptable.

I've done similar things on the private side, and it's far more LOE within the government to get the same things done with much more restrictions on what you are allowed to do. People that can do it in the PS that switch to private usually are laughing because it's actually much easier.

I worked for companies that make the federal government look like a Rockstar for procurement. For day-to-day routine things.
push come to shove you got what you needed when you needed it in the private sector, if they had pay to have it made they would.
With the government one has To wade through so much bs to get things approved. It makes no sense to have so many hands in the pot to get things done.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Ok, but my raging sarcasm aside- this is about keeping people in distressed trades, who would otherwise have been discarded entirely and blown off to be a VAC problem. Why not retain people who can teach, administer etc if you can’t fill that trade anyway? Nothing I’m seeing here changes the balance of ‘healthy members/tasks’.

One issue with that is even though it does fill a needed position it means other healthy people are stuck on the ‘front line’ tasks without the ability to get into those day shift weekend off type positions. Basically punishing those who are healthy by never getting a break.

I think a large part of this problem was the privatizing of a lot of the rear line support positions in the 90s. It reduced the manning pool, reduced the training opportunities, made it so there was less steady work jobs and mainly frontline positions. Now there is less people to share the burden on the more field positions, and consequently harder to get a break then rotate back in.

The actual process to go from mil to civil service is pretty easy, and there is even incentives to hire veterans. Medically released CAF members are on the highest priority list, and normal retirements/releases are a secondary tier but still on a priority hire list. If you find a qualified candidate you can effectively directly hire them (after jumping through HR hoops).

The issue is more the lack of SWE, lack of HR people to process the hires, and in some cases, credentialism. You can do the same job in the CAF, but maybe not be able to do it as a public servant if the position requires something like an engineering degree (because of the classification). Which is weird, because you can get a P.Eng without it with equivalent experience.

Still a fair number of people on stress leave, and more that should be on stress leave, but when you are one person with the workload of 3-4, with no hope for a change like a posting, that grinds people down over time. I'm sure there are fakes, but have met a lot of dedicated PSs, who genuinely are passionate about doing their job properly so that the CAF has the tools they need, but when you can't buy spares, get contracts in place or otherwise do your job because of lack of funding, bureaucratic hurdles, multi-department empire building, etc that makes the overwork even worse.

I think the term for it is 'moral injury', but burnt out is burnt out, regardless if you are on a front line unit or in a cubicle..

The issue isn’t whether or not there is hard working people, it is whether or not the process is worth following. Our byzantine system requires insane amounts of work to receive a questionable product at the end. That isn’t the fault of the workers, rather the problem they have to deal with. Small cog big machine.

'If they are overworked just find a new job'

'WHy do things take so long'

You have the empathy of a turnip mate. Do you not see how the thing you complain about so much might be related? Overworked people either go somewhere else or burn out, and either way things don't get done, bins stay empty, projects don't progress. Glad you know all the solutions for someone who has never tried doing it.

Buying shit isn't niche. Project management isn't niche. Doing it in the GoC with all the TBS rules, PSPC rules, international treaties, domestic laws and regulations is niche.

It's not like front line public servants want to jump through 34 approval gates either, that's just the nature of the beast. Don't take out your ignorant lumping of the entire government on the thousands of people struggling through the necessary bullshit to get things done.

It's not like contractors don't have to jump through the same hoops at some point, and at some point someone still has to manage whatever the contract is, which includes all the bureacratic hoops to get contracts in place, get funding, make payments etc.

I've done similar things on the private side, and it's far more LOE within the government to get the same things done with much more restrictions on what you are allowed to do. People that can do it in the PS that switch to private usually are laughing because it's actually much easier.

Generally is much easier private side, though they still have lots of issues too. Currently watching a multi-million dollar screwup from the sidelines that is being made to work because of a 2+ year lead time to actually receive the machine and the requirement to have it working soon. Hopefully it actually works but when your retrofitting stuff before it’s even been installed it doesn’t give you the warm and fuzzys.

I have tons of little examples of civvy side procurement failures/problems just from what I have seen (in fact a good portion of my job is physically correcting contracted out work), so it isn’t all the sunshine and rainbows everyone thinks it is.

 

[Navy_Pete]

The issue isn’t whether or not there is hard working people, it is whether or not the process is worth following. Our byzantine system requires insane amounts of work to receive a questionable product at the end. That isn’t the fault of the workers, rather the problem they have to deal with. Small cog big machine.

Yeah, for sure. Nothing is more frustrating than jumping through hoops that really add nothing to the process. I absolutely get why we need multiple quotes in most cases and a lot of that, but there is a lot of stuff that adds labour without any real purpose. Filling out the same for for GBA+ every time I buy random replacement parts like valves or gaskets for example, saying it doesn't apply to the procurement is a waste of my time, but I can absolutely see taking things like proper sizing when buying some kind of clothing for the first time. There are plenty of much more painful and labour intensive processes (like the SBCA requirements), but after filling that one out hundreds of times in the last 4 years it sticks out.

Generally is much easier private side, though they still have lots of issues too. Currently watching a multi-million dollar screwup from the sidelines that is being made to work because of a 2+ year lead time to actually receive the machine and the requirement to have it working soon. Hopefully it actually works but when your retrofitting stuff before it’s even been installed it doesn’t give you the warm and fuzzys.

I have tons of little examples of civvy side procurement failures/problems just from what I have seen (in fact a good portion of my job is physically correcting contracted out work), so it isn’t all the sunshine and rainbows everyone thinks it is.

I've seen the same; production lines shut down for months, losing millions a week, because someone selected a crane that was too light duty for a steel mill. It technically met the weight requirements, just not the duty cycle, and fell apart. They didn't actually end up paying for it as it was udner warranty but that only covered the cost of the unit, not lost production.

Also have run into plenty of dog shagging layabouts in private companies big and small, so it's not like there is something special for DND or the GoC there. Lots of places have that person that shines on the bosses but is actually a useless oxygen thief.

Similarly lots of places overwork people until they burn out or quit, regardless of how much it's costing them in lost profit. Finding a job isn't easy generally, and especially when you like the team you work with or believe in what you are doing people will struggle through a lot of BS until they can't sometimes.

 

[CountDC]

This is a complete pile of garbage. A CAF member is either able to function at 100%, take a trench, and machine gun a bad guy in the face, or they’re of no further conceivable use to the institution. If they can’t actually put their decades of knowledge, skills, training, and expertise into use personally, what possible benefit could CAF have from any further leveraging of what they know? Why would CAF retain banged up members to instruct, repair, or administer when they could instead task fully operational people on TD from elsewhere in the country to do those classroom, desk or workshop jobs instead?

Something something get off my lawn…

One reason might be because we are so short. I will also point out that most members of the CAF even fully fit would not be able to take a trench and machine gun a bad guy in the face. Calling out the cooks, medics, admins, etc is not going to do anything other than provide cannon fodder. Of course you could always train them to be infantry but then who is doing their trade work while they are working as infantry? This retention 2.0 will enable the stressed trades to retain members for 3 years while they try to rebuild the trade with new members and get them trained. I do like that it will take recommendations as that enables looking at the members MELs to determine if it should be supported. The person on MEL of 2 half days a week with no end in sight shouldn't even be considered or supported. The HRA that is able to work 5 days a week but not able to complete a FORCE test may be someone that trade wants to keep to help get through these years. They are fully able to do the admin or instruct in Borden on the trade course.

I lived through that for a few years; but it's no different than a CAF member in a position but not actually doing it for any number of reasons (taskings, MELs etc). We had multiple PS and CAF positions filled on paper but vacant in reality. Parental leave is another similar situation where you can't backfill.

parental leave can be backfilled by a reservist if the job is suitable for it. I currently have a reservist backfilling one and have used it several times before. Admittedly I usually have had to use them at a lower level than the backfilled position but it still helps. For example backfill a MCpl position with a PRes Cpl and have them do everything except the full supervisor role. Gives me the worker to get things done and them some additional valuable skills. Sometimes they even decide to change trades and transfer to the Reg F.