Reconstitution

[Furniture]

Perhaps the fact that people below the rank of CPO1/CWO are walking away in droves is a direct, albeit probably unconscious, reaction to the disconnection of our most senior rank to its core. The RCN has established a Command MS position in RCN HQ. If that doesn't speak volumes I don't know what will. The hollow middle is also festering and rotten.

I think the people who did this wanted something akin to WO Corps like we see in the US Military.

Few things are more grating than listening to a CWO/CPO 1 ramble on about the Chief Corps...

The goal as explained at that time was to professionalize the CWO corps so that they could contribute at a strategic level and go beyond just dress deportment and discipline. Part of that I suppose is being able to research, analyze and write and learn about leading organisations and institutions rather than just the leading of people, which you would have already had. ALP being a step in that direction. In my opinion it has nothing to do directly with being a CSM but more to do with preparing you for the next step which is transitioning to organizational leadership.

As far as working at the Strat level goes, the whole point of having Snr NCMs in the room is to have their perspective, not just to have a group of Snr NCMs indoctrinated into the hivemind.

I support the idea of the Command Team concept of a CO and Cox'n, but the role of the Cox'n in that setting is all about people, dress, and deportment. The role of the CO is institutional policy, and institutional leadership.

 

[Eagle_Eye_View]

I remember when I did my ALP a few years ago was to introduce students to research and analyze a problem and present solutions via an essay. I personally didn't find it helped me at all for my job as a SWO, where the majority of my job needed "people skills." Professionalizing the CWO Corp is not a bad thing, but we have to remember that an important role of CWO/MWO is to present facts and often tell things how they truly are.
When it comes to writing essays, I recommend NEPDP as it teaches how to properly research, analyze and write academic papers.

 

[Kirkhill]

The people I hear talking about racism and sexism in the CAF are those who have experienced it. THe goal isn't to have the same level of racism or sexism as the rest of the society. The goal is to eliminate it. This is absolutely something that needs substantial effort, but such efforts are very much so worth while..

The effort is worthwhile, but is the goal realistic? Attainable?

We are dealing with people and people are imperfect, fallible, flawed. No institution is going to achieve perfection. But all institutions need to be able to tolerate some grit in the gears. Some people are going to work for change. Some will oppose it. And somewhere in there is Leadership.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Few things are more grating than listening to a CWO/CPO 1 ramble on about the Chief Corps...

We really should break open a bottle of whiskey together.

As far as working at the Strat level goes, the whole point of having Snr NCMs in the room is to have their perspective, not just to have a group of Snr NCMs indoctrinated into the hivemind.

I support the idea of the Command Team concept of a CO and Cox'n, but the role of the Cox'n in that setting is all about people, dress, and deportment. The role of the CO is institutional policy, and institutional leadership.

So well said.

I remember when I did my ALP a few years ago was to introduce students to research and analyze a problem and present solutions via an essay. I personally didn't find it helped me at all for my job as a SWO, where the majority of my job needed "people skills." Professionalizing the CWO Corp is not a bad thing, but we have to remember that an important role of CWO/MWO is to present facts and often tell things how they truly are.
When it comes to writing essays, I recommend NEPDP as it teaches how to properly research, analyze and write academic papers.

Someone needs to define what they meant by "professionalizing" the CWO corps. Were they not professionals already ?

 

[Remius]

Perhaps the fact that people below the rank of CPO1/CWO are walking away in droves is a direct, albeit probably unconscious, reaction to the disconnection of our most senior rank to its core. The RCN has established a Command MS position in RCN HQ. If that doesn't speak volumes I don't know what will. The hollow middle is also festering and rotten.

I think the people who did this wanted something akin to WO Corps like we see in the US Military.

Possible. I think the walking away has more to do with our current state and effectiveness. But that ties into the disconnect you mentioned.

Yeah, I’m pretty sure it was borrowed from the US model.

 

[FSTO]

I support the idea of the Command Team concept of a CO and Cox'n, but the role of the Cox'n in that setting is all about people, dress, and deportment. The role of the CO is institutional policy, and institutional leadership.

XO and COXN joined at the hip. CO above the fray.

 

[Navy_Pete]

A command MS still blows my mind. Seems like a natural consequence of pulling the Command Chief/Fleet Chiefs further away from core roles and turning them into staff weenies that don't leave HQ.

Working from Ottawa drives me a bit crazy at time that unless you talk to ship's staff or the FMF project leader, no one ashore seems to be aware of what is going on on the ship. I think a lot of them are too busy, so that's fine, but you really need a few people that have dedicated time to walk the ships and poke at things. There used to be a few PO1s and Chiefs in the formation that would visit the ship weekly during SWPs, which was great for everyone, but think some of those positions are empty and/or changed with COVID restrictions.

No point having a lot of people wokring locally if they have the same SA as I do from 1000+ miles away, and you need to have enough people there so they can actually get eyes on the ships. If the Fleet/Command is surprised that ships don't have heat, hot water etc coming out of DWP though, they just haven't been paying attention for their career.

 

[Furniture]

XO and COXN joined at the hip. CO above the fray.

ah... but that's not how a Command Team works anywhere else in the CAF, it's a navy bastardization of the concept.

 

[Halifax Tar]

ah... but that's not how a Command Team works anywhere else in the CAF, it's a navy bastardization of the concept.

Bingo. Honestly the XO should be moved out of it in the RCN.

 

[dapaterson]

Bingo. Honestly the XO should be moved out of it in the RCN.

CO plausible deniability is a hell of a drug.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

This is because the CAF continues to think education equates to leadership. Not just for Officers, look at our use of PLQ, ILP ect ect.

You cannot train someone to be a leader. Its in innate character trait, that can be sharpened, but not created from nothing.

Good point on the *LQs for the NCM Corps; the Jnr leadership courses have been watered down IMO and the level of competence, GSK, etc is nothing for us to rave about either.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Bingo. Honestly the XO should be moved out of it in the RCN.

I was thinking the opposite for the RCAF; it’s the CO and SCWO/SWO forming the CR with the DCO “down the hall doing admin”.

Maybe command team should be command triad ?

All the CWO/CPO1 Corp has done for a lot of WOs and MWOs I know is make them certain they do not want to go any higher than MWO - myself included.

Some of the best CWOs/RSMs that I’ll have served under when I retire had unimpressive formal educations, but they lead the way CWOs are supposed to lead - and I assure you it was dump truck loads more than “the 3Ds”; they influenced Officers and directly and indirectly carried out the hands-on PD that made WOs and NCOs more competent and capable on average than they are today IMO.

The Chief Corp is liked by those who intend to use it for success; and perhaps the Officers who value education and coursing over raw leadership abilities. My 2 cents…

 

[dapaterson]

The challenge: post unit CWOs will likely need the writing and analytical skills that ALP should deliver. When is the best time to provide them? Why not do it earlier?

 

[WLSC]

The idea of the CWO Corps have been…kinda usurped by people who strongly believe that education replace easily expertise. They used their formal education to try move away and influence what a CPO/CWO should be. Yes, it should be about the DDD. You can make DDD make a lot of sense at every level and on any subject. All the ALP writing skills are their to make those point valid, not redo the CAF at the good idea ferry level.

 

[FSTO]

ah... but that's not how a Command Team works anywhere else in the CAF, it's a navy bastardization of the concept.

I guess I've been out of the fleet for quite a while then. That was the way it worked when I sailed (now counting his fingers and coming up with 19 years ago ------ F**********************)

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I would posit there is no Command team…just Command.

A Commanding Officer owns all of the responsibility, all of the time. It is not a team sport. There is only one decision maker.

With that said, it is an idiot who commands without carefully listening to those around who (usually) have good advice to give.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I would posit there is no Command team…just Command.

A Commanding Officer owns all of the responsibility, all of the time. It is not a team sport. There is only one decision maker.

With that said, it is an idiot who commands without carefully listening to those around who (usually) have good advice to give.

If only there were a SNCO handy, to piggy back off of what you just said

 

[FSTO]

If only there were a SNCO handy, to piggy back off of what you just said

Since the CO is not a member of the Wardroom and is not exposed to the day to day bitching of subbies and HODs he needs the XO to be voice of the officers just like the COXN is the voice of the lower deck. What works in the Army does not automatically transfer to the Navy and the return is just as true.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

If only there were a SNCO handy, to piggy back off of what you just said

Why limit that to just Sgts and PO2s?

Army ranks - Canada.ca

Ranks in the Canadian Army mark a person's position in its hierarchical structure. Badges show a person's rank.

www.canada.ca

 

[Halifax Tar]

Since the CO is not a member of the Wardroom and is not exposed to the day to day bitching of subbies and HODs he needs the XO to be voice of the officers just like the COXN is the voice of the lower deck. What works in the Army does not automatically transfer to the Navy and the return is just as true.

So make the CO a member of the wardroom ?

Maybe this disconnection from the rest of the team is part of the problem. Just because Nelson and Beatty did it doesn't means it's still a valid tradition.

C&POs gets by just fine with the 'Swain.