RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=RedFive]
EDIT to add: Pretty sure they don't like polymer pistols for -60 brittleness on patrol in our more northern territories.
[/quote]

Tell em the Danish Navy run 2000 mile long-range reconnaissance patrols on dog sleds around the northern and eastern coast of arctic Greenland with Glock pistols (and 30-06 Enfields). They'll be fine  ;D

 

[daftandbarmy]

Tell em the Danish Navy run 2000 mile long-range reconnaissance patrols on dog sleds around the northern and eastern coast of arctic Greenland with Glock pistols (and 30-06 Enfields). They'll be fine  ;D

The Sirius Patrol.... some of these guys were on a Norwegian winter warfare course I attended many years ago:

Because of the special nature of the Sirius Dog Sled Patrol operations, a wide range of unique equipment is required that is not normally used by the Danish armed forces.[3][12]

The weapons carried also reflect the harsh conditions. Among the equipment used by the Sirius Dog Sled Patrol is the M1917 Enfield bolt-action rifle chambered in .30-06 Springfield, known in Danish service as the Gevær M/53 (17), and the Glock 20 pistol chambered in 10mm Auto.

The Sirius Dog Sled Patrol uses the standard .30-06 Springfield 168-grain (10.89 g) armor piercing, M2 military rifle round and also civilian hollow-points. The patrolmen feel that the M2 military round is best against aggressive polar bears at long range, but that the hollow-points are better against an enraged musk ox. Typically, the patrolmen arrange their stripper clips so every third round is a hollow-point.

The Sirius Dog Sled Patrol formerly used Pistol M/49 sidearms chambered in 9×19mm Parabellum, but they proved insufficient against the polar bears encountered.[13]

"The weapons carried also reflect the harsh conditions. Only bolt-action rifles (M17/M53) perform reliably. The standard SIG210 Neuhausen sidearm was recently replaced by the 10mm Glock 20, as the stopping power of multiple 9mm rounds proved to be insufficient against a polar bear."[14]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirius_Dog_Sled_Patrol#:~:text=Among%20the%20equipment%20used%20by,Sled%20Patrol%20uses%20the%20standard%20.

 

[RedFive]

Tell em the Danish Navy run 2000 mile long-range reconnaissance patrols on dog sleds around the northern and eastern coast of arctic Greenland with Glock pistols (and 30-06 Enfields). They'll be fine  ;D

Therein lies the frustration with management. It doesn't matter how much sense it makes, or what kind of other expert opinion/evidence is out there, somebody has built an empire on this procurement program and they'll be damned if they let it end before their candidate wins and their pension is maxed out. Times that by at least four units/sections/trades/specialties that have their own pistol type and that's how we got where we are.

 

[Haggis]

Last I heard, off the table due to needing to pull the trigger to disassemble. They trust us with authorities unseen in any other profession, but not in the proper disassembly of our sidearms...

That didn't stop some of the largest municipal and provincial law enforcement agencies in Canada from going to Glock.

At the federal level (aside from the  CAF MP) you have three different pistols in use across at least five agencies and combined they make up smaller numbers than the NYPD. That's small potatoes for most pistol manufacturers.

IP transfer concerns are not really a showstopper for federal law enforcement. Berettas, S&W, Sig Sauers and Glocks are already in use and none are manufactured in Canada.

 

[Haggis]

Murray-Hill riot might (or might not) be a good example of what happens when the police step back and take a knee.

I lived in Montréal during that riot.  It was a terrifying period which continued into the October Crisis the following year.

 

[Eaglelord17]

It would be interesting to see if calls to defund the police would die out if Law Enforcement unions coordinated a similar thing nation (or continent) wide. There are definitely crappy cops out there, and that scares me. But the alternative is even less appealing...

Why does it have to be accept crappy cops or have no cops? How about separating the wheat from the chaff and let the good cops continue on with their jobs?

I am also curious as to why people believe the RCMP are underpaid? Its 56k a year starting going up to 86k within 5 years with a excellent pension, OT, and other benefits. For a job that only requires you have highschool that is a pretty solid package.

As to a service pistol just pick a Sig, CZ, or some other DA/SA pistol (I say DA/SA because safeties are a time waster in stressful situations and the double action makes sure you don't accidentally pull the trigger the first time), all the modern ones are more than suitable and fairly inexpensive. The whole project should be about 12-20 million to buy all these pistols for the whole force (just over 30k RCMP members, at roughly 400-600$ per pistol when you factor in the bulk government price), just make a decision and go with it. The longer they waste is ensuring members aren't adequately armed, and that the cost overruns of management working on that decision might end up with the cost of deciding what to procure being more than the procurement itself.

 

[MJP]

I can’t recall which thread it was, but I’ve definitely given some thoughts on the whole ‘defund’ thing before. Generally speaking, it’s going to depend on what they mean by that. If it’s simply yanking police funding without any thought given to it, then yeah, that’s worth nothing. If it’s the conscious diversion of funding from police to fill other societal needs AND in doing so reduce the workload of police getting sent to stuff that shouldn’t be their problem (Non-violent domestics, BS neighbour disputes, non-violent mental health calls etc), then that’s worth looking at. Unfortunately, much if not most of the ‘defund’ rhetoric is just mindless anti-police noise, not thought out policy alternatives. Society could certainly stand to benefit from less of police being employed as adult babysitters, often for the same people who are our most vocal critics.

I think reading your post before it and in general feel the same way as what you posted above.  Both sides grandstanding waters down the issue and makes it ablack and white issue, but it is much more than that IMHO.  It is much more an American issue that has been blindly picked up on the Canadian side of the border likely without much thought. Do police here have issues? In my opinion yes but it means looking at the issue not throwing the baby out with the bath water. I have lived in several places with peace officers as the traffic enforcement, by-law and general low level enforcement folks leaving the police free to do other things. Add in a touch of social services to make it a holistic effort to help society instead of just policing it maybe is the answer. I don't profess much expertise in this area, however my belief is that like many things we need to review how we as a society want to police, assist and deal with issues. To stay status quo may be the answer, but we won't know unless we look at other options and try them.

 

[dapaterson]

Looking at Canadian average income, RCMP pay seems OK; benchmarking against other forces (OPP, QPP, Toronto, Vancouver...) the RCMP rates are materially less.  Plus max pension for RCMP is realized at 35 years of service; for Ontario police, it's at 30 years of service now (as I recall).
The question of police compensation writ large across the country is another, different discussion.

I lack the knowledge and expertise to comment on the technical requirements for replacement RCMP sidearm(s), but I do suspect that smaller purchases have been possible without drawing heat and light.  A wholesale replacement will draw attention and desire to create Canadian economic benefits.  As well, costing is more than just pistols - it's ancillary gear; it's spares and tooling; it's training and conversion costs for members to undergo familiarization and qualification; it 's potentially infra costs if lockups need to be modified...

 

[mariomike]

Plus max pension for RCMP is realized at 35 years of service; for Ontario police, it's at 30 years of service now (as I recall).

This does not apply to OPP, as they are provincial employees,

Ontario Municipal Employees Retirement System ( OMERS )

The OMERS Supplemental Plan for Police, Firefighters and Paramedics (the "Supplemental Plan") offers optional benefits for members of the police sector, firefighters and paramedics.
https://www.omers.com/supplemental-plan

I am also curious as to why people believe the RCMP are underpaid? Its 56k a year starting going up to 86k within 5 years with a excellent pension, OT, and other benefits. For a job that only requires you have highschool that is a pretty solid package.

See also,

Civilians complaining about Police/Emergency Services' Pay 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/102608.0
5 pages.

 

[Haggis]

As to a service pistol just pick a Sig, CZ, or some other DA/SA pistol (I say DA/SA because safeties are a time waster in stressful situations and the double action makes sure you don't accidentally pull the trigger the first time), all the modern ones are more than suitable and fairly inexpensive. The whole project should be about 12-20 million to buy all these pistols for the whole force (just over 30k RCMP members, at roughly 400-600$ per pistol when you factor in the bulk government price), just make a decision and go with it. The longer they waste is ensuring members aren't adequately armed, and that the cost overruns of management working on that decision might end up with the cost of deciding what to procure being more than the procurement itself.

To make the contract worth bidding on and to see serious bulk savings, it would have to be a substantial sized buy. As I stated earlier, combined the RCMP (19,000), CBSA (7,000), Fisheries Officers (650) and Park Wardens (100) have less armed officers than the NYPD (35,200). So why not buy once for all and put everyone on the same basic platform?  Throw in the CAF and then you'd have a good sized buy. (An example would be to go with the Sig Sauer P320 platform for LE use and the mil modified M17 for CAF use as the CAF would want an external/manual safety.)

Also, your estimate of price per unit fails to account for new holsters, possibly magazine pouches, storage and transportation modifications, development and implementation of conversion training and recertification for all officers and instructors, maintenance and lifecycle management.  And this could also include costs for ammunition unless a 9mm is selected.

*edit*  dapaterson partly beat me to it.

 

[brihard]

Looking at Canadian average income, RCMP pay seems OK; benchmarking against other forces (OPP, QPP, Toronto, Vancouver...) the RCMP rates are materially less.  Plus max pension for RCMP is realized at 35 years of service; for Ontario police, it's at 30 years of service now (as I recall).
The question of police compensation writ large across the country is another, different discussion.

This will be a key issue for NPF and Treasury Board at the bargaining table. NPF will argue that RCMP can only be appropriately compared to other police services for purposes of total compensation (which is well beyond just the base salary). TBS will probably try to argue comparability to other federal employees. And of course as RCMP goes, there will be knock on effects to other federal public safety professions such as CBSA and corrections. There’s a decent possibility that this aspect of the negotiations may go to mediation-arbritration.

 

[daftandbarmy]

To make the contract worth bidding on and to see serious bulk savings, it would have to be a substantial sized buy. As I stated earlier, combined the RCMP (19,000), CBSA (7,000), Fisheries Officers (650) and Park Wardens (100) have less armed officers than the NYPD (35,200). So why not buy once for all and put everyone on the same basic platform?  Throw in the CAF and then you'd have a good sized buy. (An example would be to go with the Sig Sauer P320 platform for LE use and the mil modified M17 for CAF use as the CAF would want an external/manual safety.)

Also, your estimate of price per unit fails to account for new holsters, possibly magazine pouches, storage and transportation modifications, development and implementation of conversion training and recertification for all officers and instructors, maintenance and lifecycle management.  And this could also include costs for ammunition unless a 9mm is selected.

*edit*  dapaterson partly beat me to it.

I like Honey....

 

[lenaitch]

Plus max pension for RCMP is realized at 35 years of service; for Ontario police, it's at 30 years of service now (as I recall).

As Marionmike mentioned, OPP pensionable earning calculations are not capped - 2% per year of service.  A couple of years ago a member retired with 50 years service; effectively 100% pension.

All municipal police services are under OMERS (Ontario Municipal Employee Retirement System).  According to this they are capped at 35 years service for pensionable earnings calculation, although that is apparently changing.

What is credited service?
Credited service is the number of years and months of paid service you have in the OMERS Plan. The maximum amount of credited service a member may have is capped at 35 years.

Note: Effective January 1, 2021, OMERS will no longer cap your credited service. If you have not reached 35 years of credited service prior to this date, you will continue to contribute and accrue credited service in the Plan. If a member meets the 35-year cap before January 1, 2021, the limit will continue to apply

https://www.omers.com/Members/Maximize-Your-Pension/Buying-Service

 

[mariomike]

A couple of years ago a member retired with 50 years service; effectively 100% pension.

Imagine getting pulled over! 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnvPJtJf6uo

 

[Colin Parkinson]

To make the contract worth bidding on and to see serious bulk savings, it would have to be a substantial sized buy. As I stated earlier, combined the RCMP (19,000), CBSA (7,000), Fisheries Officers (650) and Park Wardens (100) have less armed officers than the NYPD (35,200). So why not buy once for all and put everyone on the same basic platform?  Throw in the CAF and then you'd have a good sized buy. (An example would be to go with the Sig Sauer P320 platform for LE use and the mil modified M17 for CAF use as the CAF would want an external/manual safety.)

Also, your estimate of price per unit fails to account for new holsters, possibly magazine pouches, storage and transportation modifications, development and implementation of conversion training and recertification for all officers and instructors, maintenance and lifecycle management.  And this could also include costs for ammunition unless a 9mm is selected.

*edit*  dapaterson partly beat me to it.

It`s a great idea, from what I hear Sig actually underbid Glock for the US army contract and I think the Glock LE price at the time was roughly $265 USD for pistol, case, 5 mags and cleaning rod. make the contract requirement that the pistol is in production and NATO Service that makes it Sig and Glock, either would be fine. 60,000 pistols would work to cover the DND and all of the services. When the French Federal police bought the Sig 2022, they bought 500,000.

 

[PuckChaser]

DND can't sort itself out to buy replacement service pistols. How the heck are we going to coordinate requirements between 5 different PS organizations with its own independent kingdoms???

 

[Eaglelord17]

To make the contract worth bidding on and to see serious bulk savings, it would have to be a substantial sized buy. As I stated earlier, combined the RCMP (19,000), CBSA (7,000), Fisheries Officers (650) and Park Wardens (100) have less armed officers than the NYPD (35,200). So why not buy once for all and put everyone on the same basic platform?  Throw in the CAF and then you'd have a good sized buy. (An example would be to go with the Sig Sauer P320 platform for LE use and the mil modified M17 for CAF use as the CAF would want an external/manual safety.)

Also, your estimate of price per unit fails to account for new holsters, possibly magazine pouches, storage and transportation modifications, development and implementation of conversion training and recertification for all officers and instructors, maintenance and lifecycle management.  And this could also include costs for ammunition unless a 9mm is selected.

*edit*  dapaterson partly beat me to it.

Some of the kits you can buy civvy side include holsters etc. for similar prices to what I have listed. I get that holster might not be the particular one they desire and that is something would have to be explored on its own. Training really shouldn't be much of a issue, most modern pistols are all pretty basic and if you already have pistol training its more a matter of handling the pistol for a little bit than anything serious. I don't see why they would choose anything other than a 9mm. Most officers don't shoot much to begin with and throwing a heavier caliber their way is both a waste of money in terms of having to acquire new non-standard ammo and would likely result in less effectiveness on the officers part.

My estimation for cost was based on 30k pistols as well. If they only need 19k-20k, the costs even if you add all the other extras in should still be within my estimate. They are equipped with obsolescent worn out pistols which is their main armament. Just make a decision and go with it. All of these modern designs have very long life spans, are very reliable, relatively accurate, and are fairly cheap. They all have served with militaries and police officers around the world without issue. We like to pretend that we have all these special requirements but if it is working fine for everyone else it will work fine for us. They really can't go too far wrong with any of them.

 

[Haggis]

It`s a great idea, from what I hear Sig actually underbid Glock for the US army contract and I think the Glock LE price at the time was roughly $265 USD for pistol, case, 5 mags and cleaning rod. make the contract requirement that the pistol is in production and NATO Service that makes it Sig and Glock, either would be fine. 60,000 pistols would work to cover the DND and all of the services. When the French Federal police bought the Sig 2022, they bought 500,000.

When Glock was awarded the Ottawa Police Service contract they pretty much gave away the pistols in order to win the bid.

 

[Jarnhamar]

There might be some wisdom in just picking a really good sidearm and not just what we/they can get for the cheapest price.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

There might be some wisdom in just picking a really good sidearm and not just what we/they can get for the cheapest price.

They need to buy new pistols and fast.  The Sig225 is absolute garbage as is the Browning mostly because they are old and have been put through the ringer.  It would be nice to have a pistol you know won't have a stoppage the minute you pull it out of the holster.  Sig226 is fine but for how much longer they are made remains to be seen.

Sig is also in financial difficulty and has recently closed their plant in Germany leaving just their American plant open.  No guarantee Sig will be a safe bet for any sort of pistol replacement.

As for requirements, double action or striker fired please.  The Browning is really unsafe when compared to a Glock or Sig.