RCMP New Firearms Required Discussion- Split From New MP Decal Thread

[Booter]

This is something I spend a lot of time on with management and I’m going to say something crazy- I know.

When the lowest common denominator messes something up- deal with that dude, quickly, and stop treating the whole force like they can’t walk by an outlet without jamming a fork in it.

The carbine has a light. The 40mm has a light. The 870 has a proposed light (that now because of the cost of the retrofits for cups/lights/sights there is a conversation of getting rid of it that’s a real potential COA)

light discipline will be a real issue. It is a hard thing to get people thinking around

 

[Haggis]

Glock has been getting aggressive. Promising all types of mods

I don't know what deal they made with the O.P.P., but the pretty much gave away their .40 cal Glock 22's to the Ottawa Police.

 

[Haggis]

This is something I spend a lot of time on with management and I’m going to say something crazy- I know.

When the lowest common denominator messes something up- deal with that dude, quickly, and stop treating the whole force like they can’t walk by an outlet without jamming a fork in it.

The carbine has a light. The 40mm has a light. The 870 has a proposed light (that now because of the cost of the retrofits for cups/lights/sights there is a conversation of getting rid of it that’s a real potential COA)

light discipline will be a real issue. It is a hard thing to get people thinking around

The O.P.P don't seem to have had any problems with officers misusing the mounted lights on their Glock 17Ms so far. This is a training issue which can be addressed during conversion training.

 

[Booter]

I can’t speak to their experience-
Only mine. I do appreciate that comment though that’s something I should look into.

I know that I’ve had nothing but issues teaching around illumination. Maybe that’s a me problem and we just had a introspective breakthrough.

 

[Booter]

Pretty clear from their rollout it can be done and I’m a negative Nancy

 

[KevinB]

Originally there was great concern in the USSS (Secret Service) about a rail mounted light on a handgun. Initially it only went to SOD (ERT, CAT, CS, CSU and SOTs) personnel, when the boogeyman didn’t appear it is now standard on their new Glocks.

Weapon Mounted lights are a necessary item, and all that is required is a proper training regime.

 

[Haggis]

I can’t speak to their experience-
Only mine. I do appreciate that comment though that’s something I should look into.

I know that I’ve had nothing but issues teaching around illumination. Maybe that’s a me problem and we just had a introspective breakthrough.

Officers will still have to articulate why they drew their firearm when filling out the use-of-force reporting required by their jurisdiction.

I recently worked on a project where I consulted with several law enforcement academies across Canada on low light shooting. At this point, roughly 50% of the services in Ontario (not including the O.P.P.) are using pistol mounted lights and that's expected to increase. There is still a need to teach officers how to use a handheld flashlight as a backup should their mounted light fail.

 

[Booter]

I’m not worried about the searching with light, I’m worried about the tactical use of light- I’ve been involved in conversion training to go to different firearms with the mounted lights and watched the struggle.

I know the use of flashlights is already a thing, but there’s a different consideration with the pressure mounted lights that I’ve observed with a few different platforms now.

But you’ve given me a good thing to think about with OPP.

We ll climb over the issues and it’s a necessary thing to have.

I’m conflating a couple different things and because you’re experts and I’m doing things from a cellphone I’m sure that’s frustrating, I’m just some dude that’s carried a couple different handguns for work now. I actually dont really care what firearm I have, I use what I have,

I’ve found good things in every one I’ve Carried

 

[KevinB]

I know the use of flashlights is already a thing, but there’s a different consideration with the pressure mounted lights that I’ve observed with a few different platforms now.

One of the biggest issues I have seen is when Light adoption comes, it usually comes out of ERT/TAC units first.
A WML (Weapon Mounted Light) activation method may be ideal for ERT, but does not work well for Patrol.

This is exceptionally true of teams that issue a carbine/smg as a primary weapon, and use the pistol as a secondary - or use a shield man with pistol.
As they will not be concerned about light activation on the pistol - as if they have the pistol out - generally it is being aimed already at something.

Patrol officers will have a different need, as immediate activation (like the DevGru pressure switch on the SF X300 series lights) isn't desired.

I only say this - as I have seen several departments down here end up needing to get new lights after they realized their ERT/SWAT system didn't work for patrol.

 

[RedFive]

I’m not worried about the searching with light, I’m worried about the tactical use of light- I’ve been involved in conversion training to go to different firearms with the mounted lights and watched the struggle.

I know the use of flashlights is already a thing, but there’s a different consideration with the pressure mounted lights that I’ve observed with a few different platforms now.

But you’ve given me a good thing to think about with OPP.

We ll climb over the issues and it’s a necessary thing to have.

I’m conflating a couple different things and because you’re experts and I’m doing things from a cellphone I’m sure that’s frustrating, I’m just some dude that’s carried a couple different handguns for work now. I actually dont really care what firearm I have, I use what I have,

I’ve found good things in every one I’ve Carried

I'm reading between the lines that you're part of the procurement of the new pistols.

 

[Fabius]

Too bad the CAF can't just tag in on this RCMP procurement. Always gotta be special.

 

[Haggis]

Are there any police services in Canada using red dot sights on their duty pistols now?

 

[KevinB]

Are there any police services in Canada using red dot sights on their duty pistols now?

I know a couple where experimenting.
I am not sure where it has gone.

I'm a major MRDS fan on pistols, I see it as a major benefit in training and a reduction in liability.

 

[brihard]

Apparently Vancouver has gone with a P320 with red dot sight and it has already been issued to new recruits who are undergoing training at JIBC.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I know a couple where experimenting.
I am not sure where it has gone.

I'm a major MRDS fan on pistols, I see it as a major benefit in training and a reduction in liability.

I had a Vortex Viper or Razor on a Gen 5 Glock 17. For the life of me I couldn't get the hang of shooting a pistol with a red dot. Any tips?

 

[KevinB]

I had a Vortex Viper or Razor on a Gen 5 Glock 17. For the life of me I couldn't get the hang of shooting a pistol with a red dot. Any tips?

High draw and level presentation.
It can take experienced shooters a bit to adapt to it. New/novice shooters are very easy to get into it.

I’ll get pictures and maybe a video up tomorrow

 

[Haggis]

High draw and level presentation.
It can take experienced shooters a bit to adapt to it. New/novice shooters are very easy to get into it.

I’ll get pictures and maybe a video up tomorrow

That's where the challenge lies in converting iron sight trained shooters to RDS. Lots of muscle memory and mental conditioning to undo. I'm surprised the Mounties expressed as an option, unless the intent is to roll it out to specialized units only.

 

[Booter]

I'm reading between the lines that you're part of the procurement of the new pistols.

I was involved years ago before I would say it was even at its inception. An older BFI working group. I’m doing something else that put me lateral to the guys doing all the real work on it so we’ve bounced some ideas around, I’m no one. Just a sounding board.

Last week I spent filling out hospitality and ordering cheese trays. I just know interesting people

 

[Booter]

That's where the challenge lies in converting iron sight trained shooters to RDS. Lots of muscle memory and mental conditioning to undo. I'm surprised the Mounties expressed as an option, unless the intent is to roll it out to specialized units only.

There is a GBA+ driver to lots of this- and all our others firearms are working off or towards RDS.

I was also surprised- because while it was talked about years ago I don’t think anyone in the room thought it would happen. Believe it or not- at that point if I recall correctly the real point of contention was the light.

 

[Haggis]

Believe it or not- at that point if I recall correctly the real point of contention was the light.

We've had that discussion at work, too. The possibility that our officers would use the mounted light as their "go-to" flashlight to search conveyances was a real concern. I beleive that if they haven't been trained to do it, they won't. And now that "Live PD" is off the air, there are less bad examples to emulate each week.