Question about Reserve MARS CT to Reg F MARS

[Gus]

Transferring over:
- as mentioned, get the MPRR up to date
- most junior officers, up to the Lt(N) rank, keep their rank.  What has to be done is based on experience - the more shipboard experience, the "less" has to be done on transfer.  Getting OOD and BWK are requirements for a new class of ship, regardless of component.  For example, someone who had never served in FFH, but is already OOD qualified, would have to re-qualify as OOD, but not the whole package rather a ship-famil and modified evaluation.  BWK, there are other considerations in a FF or DD or AOR, that MCDV don't do (missiles, helo ops, etc).  Remember, there is not "reserve BWK" and "reg force BWK", there are "MWS BWK" and "BWK", it just happens to be that these days reg force folks don't serve in Minor Warships, so they don't do MWS BWK.  On that vein, MCDV are not "reserve ships", they are regular force units that are crewed in most part by naval reservists.
- achieving command: well, as 55 is the retirement age (don't get caught up in the 60 as retirement age, that is supposed to be temporary), everything is worked back from there.  So, to make CDS, a person would be CMS first, flag rank of several postings (including potentially a fleet commander), working in NDHQ, CO of a ship, working in NDHQ, XO of ship, working in a HQ (Ottawa, Esquimalt, or Halifax), ORO of a ship, sea-duty, qualifications etc. etc.  You can see that to add even just one or two years to each of these, they look to have someone in command by 40 (ish).  The five or six postings needed to get the CMS level requirements add up to 12 years, and that would make someone 52 (post command at 40) and give them 3 years as CDS; that's how the timeline is developed.  It's all based on reserving command for those persons who are considered likely to make it to the CMS then CDS levels.
- pension: it is possible to work full-time in the reserves and get a full pension.  It is based on days of service, we frequently say 25 yrs, but it is 9000+ days (25x365) days of service.  What that means in practical terms is that is doesn't have to be all in a row, and all in one component.  Someone could have 4000 days as an army reservist, 1000 days as a naval reservist, and the remainder as reg force.  That's how the class A calculation would come in - by the way, someone who does only class A or doesn't qualifiy for the full-time pension (50 out of 60 months, full-time), gets pensionalbe service, but the calculations are different.

 

[Cronicbny]

I wouldnt quantify my mental math as strong at this point, but I also havent sat down and dedicated any time yet to developing it either so its too early to tell.  I just transfered into MARS last month as a Naval Cadet and am scheduled to start training in the summer with an IAP bypass.  We started going over things like CPA and DTR at the unit lines, and at first it was pretty intimidating, but after I spent some time working on it on my own it didnt seem so bad, so, I guess I will find out in Sept when I start MARS 3.

One of you mentioned that alot of guys drop out along the way.  What do you mean by that?  Do they release from the Navy, or just stop trying to hit command?

I really wish I would have done all of this sooner but I was too busy wasting 14 years in the army making the best out of a less then desirable situation...

The other issue I am facing is the timing of my component transfer.  Some say go right away, others say get MARS 4 done first and go in as skilled... Now this age thing is tossed into the equation! 

Going in as skilled assumed a certain level of qualification. MARS IV is great, but a BWK makes all the difference in the world. Let me be blunt on a couple of facets:

1) Without a BWK you can transfer reg and you will remain an A/SLt... period. Unless you are granted a different rank through your past experience. (thats a different ball of wax... PM me if you want details)

2) WITH a BWK you will likely keep your rank as hamiltongs stated. What incentive you are granted has more to do with your experience and qualifications. (Not to mention Class B/C time)

3) ANY transferable qualifications you get in the reserves (MWBC etc) will never be erased, that said BOC (Reserve Basic Operations Course) is not NOC...

4) At your age I would seriously reconsider any possibility of Command in the Regular Force. I just base that statement on the words of Commodore whats his name that runs personnel out of Ottawa... in fact his direct words were "How many of you are over 30? (hands went up) then forget about command". This was to an audience entirely made up of VENTURE students in NETPO/MARS III and MARS IV

5) As recent experience will show if you transfer to the regs as a post Reserve Navigator (IE Navigated - FNO qualified - for a MWS for a contract term) you will likely be bypassed your CofC II and NOC. Basically standing by for a post D-level course.

In the end, every application is different. I hate to repeat what hamiltongs said, but it's true.... EVERY SITUATION IS DIFFERENT.

My advice... do whatever you feel is right... with the exception of CRA, everything else is always subject to change.

IN ARDUA NITOR

 

[ltmaverick25]

I was just reviewing this thread again and came up with another question.

What is the time in rank requirement for each subsequent rank and which specific courses need to be knocked off?  If possible, I would like to get an answer for both the reserve and the reg force stream.  I have done some poking around at my unit and gotten a few vague answers (we have alot of ASlt MARS but very few beyond that rank at the moment) and sadly, I rarely get DIN access.

So far, what I have been able to find out has been exclusive to the reserve side and stops at Lt(N).

For example, and this is assuming a DEO candidate...

BOTP = ASlt
NETPO, MARS 3 and 4 plus BWK =SLt
3 years in rank of SLt = Lt(N)

Is this correct?  If so, what happens after that.  What courses, appointments/postings and time in is required to hit the next rank?

As for the regular force, I am still hazy on this.  If someone can breakdown a specific time in rank requirement and courses/postings required for each rank that would be much appreciated.

 

[kratz]

ref: MARCORD 9-1, Annex B, page 5: Officer Career Progression-Promotion Eligability Requirements

The above ref is only through the DIN and lists the answers you are looking for NavRes DEO MARS Officers.  The MARCORD permits COs to promot Officers up to Lt(N) when they reach the pre-reqs, all promotions are based on merit. The pre-reqs for LCdr and higher are:

DEO NavRes MARS Officers:
NCdt: IAP/BOT until graduate from these courses
A/Slt: Backdated to enrollment once IAP/BOTP completed. NETPO, MARS 3, MARS 4, BWK and OOD
Slt:  Now MOSID qualified. 3 years in rank.
Lt(N): NROC, MWBC, 4 years in rank.
LCdr: JRCSC, 3 years in rank
Cdr: Comand of NRD, 3 years in rank

 

[Snakedoc]

For the naval reserve, SLt's require 3 years in rank and BOC mod 1 and 2 completed in order to be promoted to Lt(N).

 

[Cronicbny]

ref: MARCORD 9-1, Annex B, page 5: Officer Career Progression-Promotion Eligability Requirements

The above ref is only through the DIN and lists the answers you are looking for NavRes DEO MARS Officers.  The MARCORD permits COs to promot Officers up to Lt(N) when they reach the pre-reqs, all promotions are based on merit. The pre-reqs for LCdr and higher are:

DEO NavRes MARS Officers:
NCdt: IAP/BOT until graduate from these courses
A/Slt: Backdated to enrollment once IAP/BOTP completed. NETPO, MARS 3, MARS 4, BWK and OOD
Slt:  Now MOSID qualified. 3 years in rank.
Lt(N): NROC, MWBC, 4 years in rank.
LCdr: JRCSC, 3 years in rank
Cdr: Comand of NRD, 3 years in rank

thanks kratz, I was going to post that myself... some changes:

DEO

A/Slt: change to IAP/BOTP
SLt - change to MARS III, MARS IV, MWS BWK, OOD

RESO

NCdt - Nil req (obviously)
A/Slt - IAP/BOTP and MARS III
SLt - MARS IV, MWS BWK, OOD
Lt(N) - delete NROC add BOC 1 & 2, WDO
LCdr - Add COPS 1 & 2, I think we now delete JRCSC (or it is moved to Cdr prereq)
Cdr - Add Command of KINGSTON Class, SMW (I think)

The NAVRESORD covers this more completely though I don't have access to it now. Refer to the NAVRESORD for further info, esp. regarding COMMISSIONING PLANS FOR SERVING MEMBERS (CFR etc)

 

[ltmaverick25]

Thanks guys,

Anyone have the progression plan for the reg force side?

 

[Monsoon]

Anyone have the progression plan for the reg force side?

For someone on the ROTP or DEO entry plan it's similar to the reserve progression up to Slt (though MOSID qualified includes CofC II qualification):

Lt(N) requires NOC; not sure if the OPDPs are still being done
LCdr generally requires a D-level qual and tour, and the ORO course and tour (though recently some have gotten it without ORO)
Cdr requires JCSP (the new staff college program) and an XO tour (though, again, maybe not if you perform well ashore)

And an amendment to Cronicbny's reserve model: JCSP (which has replaced JRCSC) is required for promotion to Cdr, not LCdr, and NRD command also serves as a pre-req for promotion to Cdr.

 

[Snakedoc]

thanks kratz, I was going to post that myself... some changes:

DEO

A/Slt: change to IAP/BOTP
SLt - change to MARS III, MARS IV, MWS BWK, OOD

RESO

NCdt - Nil req (obviously)
A/Slt - IAP/BOTP and MARS III
SLt - MARS IV, MWS BWK, OOD
Lt(N) - delete NROC add BOC 1 & 2, WDO
LCdr - Add COPS 1 & 2, I think we now delete JRCSC (or it is moved to Cdr prereq)
Cdr - Add Command of KINGSTON Class, SMW (I think)

The NAVRESORD covers this more completely though I don't have access to it now. Refer to the NAVRESORD for further info, esp. regarding COMMISSIONING PLANS FOR SERVING MEMBERS (CFR etc)

You need WDO to be a Lt(N) in the RESO?  Is it the same (I would assume so) for DEO's?  I always thought it was only BOC 1 & 2, then 3 years in rank for Lt(N) RESO and DEO.

 

[Monsoon]

You need WDO to be a Lt(N) in the RESO?  Is it the same (I would assume so) for DEO's?  I always thought it was only BOC 1 & 2, then 3 years in rank for Lt(N) RESO and DEO.

That's actually true as well. I believe the WDO qual is outside of the career progression rubric.

 

[ltmaverick25]

For someone on the ROTP or DEO entry plan it's similar to the reserve progression up to Slt (though MOSID qualified includes CofC II qualification):

Lt(N) requires NOC; not sure if the OPDPs are still being done
LCdr generally requires a D-level qual and tour, and the ORO course and tour (though recently some have gotten it without ORO)
Cdr requires JCSP (the new staff college program) and an XO tour (though, again, maybe not if you perform well ashore)

And an amendment to Cronicbny's reserve model: JCSP (which has replaced JRCSC) is required for promotion to Cdr, not LCdr, and NRD command also serves as a pre-req for promotion to Cdr.

When you say CofC II Qual, what exactly is meant by this?  Is that the combination of a BWK and OOD on a heavy or is it something else?  Do you require the CofC II  for SLt or just the OOD part?

 

[MARS]

And an amendment to Cronicbny's reserve model: JCSP (which has replaced JRCSC) is required for promotion to Cdr, not LCdr, and NRD command also serves as a pre-req for promotion to Cdr.

An amendment to the amendment - I think:

NRD Command probably helps you to be competitive for Cdr promotion, but I don't believe it is a hard and fast pre-req, not for MARS at any rate.  There are numerous Cdrs out there who have not done a NRD tour or who did them following promotion to Cdr.  My last CO is an example.  IIRC - and won't be able to check until Monday - NRD Command is a MARS requirement for promotion to Capt(N).

 

[Monsoon]

NRD Command probably helps you to be competitive for Cdr promotion, but I don't believe it is a hard and fast pre-req, not for MARS at any rate.  There are numerous Cdrs out there who have not done a NRD tour or who did them following promotion to Cdr.  My last CO is an example.  IIRC - and won't be able to check until Monday - NRD Command is a MARS requirement for promotion to Capt(N).

Ah - you may be right. But what I understood was that promotion to Cdr required command of "something" first - an NRD, a MWS or a PSU - and that this was a fairly recent policy change. It could just be a soft req though, like trying to make it to LCdr without being part I qualified.

When you say CofC II Qual, what exactly is meant by this?  Is that the combination of a BWK and OOD on a heavy or is it something else?  Do you require the CofC II  for SLt or just the OOD part?

It's a bit out of my lane, but I believe CofC II is just OOW and OOD qualified plus a general board on things related to those qualifications. I can't speak to the exact promotion criteria with much confidence, I'm afraid.

 

[J_dog]

When you say CofC II Qual, what exactly is meant by this?  Is that the combination of a BWK and OOD on a heavy or is it something else?  Do you require the CofC II  for SLt or just the OOD part?

Let me see if I can shed some light on the REG force side:

Slt - OOD and MARS IV qual

Lt(N) - The prerequisites are a BWK, OOD, and NOC (Naval Ops Course), and NOPQ Board. (OPME's are not req for NOPQ but you will most likely have all done before sit the board if you went the REG Force route through NOTC).

The CofC II qual has been renamed to NOPQ aka "The Lt(N) Board" – It stands for the Naval Officer Professional Qualification Board.  Potential candidates will have to face a panel of high-ranking Officers from different trades questioning them on their professional Naval knowledge(RoR, Naval Warfare Air/Surf/Sub, Air Ops, Naval history, Recce, Naval Ops, etc) and it can be a very intense board.

NOPQ is a REG Force MARS qual and is they only way to get your Lt(N) rank. If you fail the board then you do not get the Lt(N) rank, and will get about 2-3 attempts to pass the board and if you still can't pass the NOPQ board then you will no longer be a MARS Officer. It will be your ship's CO that sends you to the NOPQ board, so if the CO thinks you are not ready, you will not go.  The NOPQ board is difficult and requires a lot of studying to prepare for it.  You have 2 years from the completion of MARS IV to gain your NOPQ qual and Lt(N) rank...if you are falling behind in your BWK trg then a msg will go to the MARS career manager telling him why you are "not on track" and an extension will be added for your allotted time to sit the NOPQ board.  The worst NOPQ board I have seen is only 1 out of 8 people passing.  The NOPQ board is held on average about every 6 months.

When you pass your NOPQ board, you will consolidate for an additional 6 months on the Bridge before you are sent off on our D-level course. Your choices for D-level are: Navigator, AWWO, UWWO, IMD, SAC and the non-surface D-levels - Clearance Diving Officer and Sub Officer.  (Second D-level are DeckO or CommO)

When you complete your D-level course you will head back to sea for your D-Level tour for 1.5 - 2 years.  Then on completion of the D-level tour will get your first "shore posting". Or you can choose to stay at sea and to do a second D-Level as a Deck O or CommO.  (I completed my first D-level tour and then went Clearance Diving Officer as my second D-level).  Just to give you a reference I was 25 when I completed my first D-level...most DEO Guys are in their late 20's early 30's when they go through their first D-level.  There were a few people on my ship that wanted to go Sub's for their first D-level and were over the age of 30, were told they were too old and had to choose another D-Level, the CF wants their Sub CO’s young.

The next big step in your MARS career will be the ORO course.  Only the top 24 Lt(N) MARS that year will get selected for the course.  Selection is based you your D-level tour, PER's, Command Exams passed...etc...The ORO course is a year long and is very difficult, and the following tour at sea (around 2 years) as an ORO is even harder.

LCdr - (For the Surface Ships) -  The fasted route for promotion to LCdr is the ORO course. You do not need the ORO course to be promoted to LCdr, however it will probably take you a real long time to get to LCdr if you don't go through the ORO route.  (By a long time I mean 15 years or more after your first D-level) Very few people get the LCdr rank without the ORO course.  Other considerations for the promotion are PERs, Second Lang, Command qual part 1 or 2, ORO tour, D-level tour, shore postings, OPME's…etc.....

LCdr - (For Submarine route) - (I am not entirely sure) but I think you need the Perisher Course and be Submarine Command Qualified.

LCdr - (For the Diving Branch)  - Similar to the Surface ship route.

The above is not a hard and fast rule but what typically happens. Basically, the fastest route to Command of a ship is to stay at sea verses remaining at shore postings and you need to be constantly up grading your quals.  It is hard fought and a long process but not impossible.

Good Luck, Cheers J.

 

[ltmaverick25]

Thanks for the insight.

You mentioned that you need to be constantly upgrading your quals.  How exactly does that work?  Which quals are we talking about, the BWK? D level or both?  Do you just write regular tests for these things or take refresher courses ect...

 

[J_dog]

Thanks for the insight.
You mentioned that you need to be constantly upgrading your quals.  How exactly does that work?  Which quals are we talking about, the BWK? D level or both?  Do you just write regular tests for these things or take refresher courses ect...

By upgrading your quals I meant more in the line of getting your OPME's completed(although this is now done after MARS IV) and getting Command Qualified Part 1 and 2.  Without getting into much detail to get Command Qualified you must pass a series of exams, a board, and practical.  You can start writing the Command exams once you have passed your NOPQ Board.  There are separate exams for each Warfare(Surf, U/W, Air), three exams Navigation (part 1, 2, 3), an exam for Deck, and a combined exam for DC/Eng.  If you pass the ORO course you will get the Warfare Command Exams written off.  Command exams are written twice a year.

I believe you need to be Command qual part 1 and 2 before you can be an XO as well as some other quals.

 

[ltmaverick25]

What are OPMEs?  Ive seen the term mentioned before but still no clue what they mean.

As far as Command quals 1 and 2, which tests need to be passed out of the ones you mentioned to acheive that?  As far as warfare type stuff.  Lets say for example you do your D level on navigation.  I would imagine you should know your way around the navigation tests, but where would you get all the comprehensive knowlege for the warfare tests if you havent done any training in those areas?

 

[dangerboy]

What are OPMEs?  Ive seen the term mentioned before but still no clue what they mean.

OPME stands for Officer Professional Military Education

http://www.opme.forces.gc.ca/index-eng.asp

 

[dimsum]

OPMEs are Officer Professional Military Education.  They're 6 courses that are university-level and can either be done through distance ed or, if the base offers it, in an actual class.  

 

[George Wallace]

OPME stands for Officer Professional Military Education

http://www.opme.forces.gc.ca/index-eng.asp

You may remember them as OPDPs.    ;D