Promotions in the CAF [Merged]

[PPCLI Guy]

I too have *some* experience with Merit Boards at every possible level.  Points are granted every single year for education,  and 2 or 3 points can make a big difference.  It varies by rank (deliberately) but college generally gains you 2 points (out of 100 - not to be sniffed at) and a Bacc even more.  The confusion about in-year academic upgrades relates to (again, generally) a single point for having made the effort to upgrade - ie one Uni credit. Same/same for OPME's.  In the trade that I am most familiar with, 2 points for having completed 2 OPME's , and an additional point for doing one in year.

 

[nickanick]

Thank you for your replies.
I really want to clarify my motives in asking so many questions about promotion.
It's not about the money, but rather, it's about the responsibility and status once you get promote.

I'm just searching a way to achieve the most out of my potential, experience and background, in CF.

 

[ModlrMike]

Eyes and ears open, mouth shut, and nose to the grindstone. There's the most important and effective route to promotion.

The rest of the stuff adds, but not as much as the first bit.

 

[aesop081]

but rather, it's about the responsibility and status once you get promote.

Careful what you wish for..............There are many days where i wish i was a Corporal again.

Funny thing about "status" is that in my mind, this is meaningless. Your "status" will only come from what type of leader you are and on wether or not you have the respect of both your superiors and your subordinates.

Also, as you get higher in rank, you risk getting yourself promoted out of a job you enjoy. I can certainly speak to that as this is what just happened to me. My previous supervisor's last words to me were " You did a great job here, too good in fact. You got promoted very fast and now you can't do this job anymore....."

 

[PMedMoe]

Also, as you get higher in rank, you risk getting yourself promoted out of a job you enjoy. I can certainly speak to that as this is what just happened to me. My previous supervisor's last words to me were " You did a great job here, too good in fact. You got promoted very fast and now you can't do this job anymore....."

Not to mention getting posted somewhere you don't really want to be, or lack of postions (due to rank) for that matter.

 

[abruent85]

Hello,

I joined back in 2009 and was told if I went LCIS through the NCM-SEP program that upon completion of my 2 years at civi school that I'd be promoted to Corporal.

So I joined and went LCIS through NCM-SEP and went to Algonquin College for the last two years. I graduated at the end of April and got posted to CFSCE where I asked about my promotion and no one had even heard of the NCM-SEP program. They were looking at me as if I had two heads.

Anyone have any info that might help me out?

Thanks,

 

[CountDC]

if you have access and assuming they do http://borden.mil.ca/33/81.aspx.  Took me 3 seconds to find this link.  I hope you were not talking to clerks.

 

[abruent85]

CountDC:

Unfortunately I've been dealing with clerks for the past year on this issue and they've have kept telling me that there's nothing on my file about a promotion. I'm not in my office right now, but I'll check out that link in the morning.


A little update for you. I found my joining instruction and went through the references, one being MARCORD 9-61. In this reference I found a career profile which shows I should of gotten my IPC 2 after my first year of school and then it shows that upon completion of my second year of school I would be A/Cpl being paid as Corporal Spec 1.

 

[GeorgeD]

I dont think you will get Cpec pay until after QL3. Im in the same program but for ATIS tech and I think we dont get spec pay until QL5. I dont know about A/Cpl though.

 

[CountDC]

I would agree with GD - don't see spec pay until QL5 and full Cpl.  Looking at the MARCORD (which you should be careful with as it has not been updated in a few years) it shows Spec pay with full Cpl at 48 months with completion of QL5.  You can get A/LS rank with Cpl pay according to the chart.  Suggest to your clerks that they contact DMTE for clarification if they need help.  Just keep in mind that there may have been changes since that MARCORD was last updated.  As I pointed out to others - MARCORDS are not an authority when it comes to pay, it is an attempt to expand and clarify the regulations and sometimes it fails - miserably. 

Good luck and let us know how it goes.  Sorry you didn't at least get a better answer out of the clerks there.

 

[abruent85]

I would agree with GD - don't see spec pay until QL5 and full Cpl.  Looking at the MARCORD (which you should be careful with as it has not been updated in a few years) it shows Spec pay with full Cpl at 48 months with completion of QL5.  You can get A/LS rank with Cpl pay according to the chart.  Suggest to your clerks that they contact DMTE for clarification if they need help.  Just keep in mind that there may have been changes since that MARCORD was last updated.  As I pointed out to others - MARCORDS are not an authority when it comes to pay, it is an attempt to expand and clarify the regulations and sometimes it fails - miserably. 

Good luck and let us know how it goes.  Sorry you didn't at least get a better answer out of the clerks there.

I originally was joining as Infantry and back in April 2009 I got a call from my recruiter saying that he looked at my aptitude test scores and was wondering if I would be interested in becoming a tech. He gave me a couple trade choices and told me after completing school I'd be A/Cpl making more than a Sgt in the infantry. Basically he gave me a breakdown of the info that is on the MARCORD.

The copy I have found of MARCORD 9-61 is dated 26 Feb 2008. The only amendments I've found to 9-61 were done on 2005-09-06 which was before the copy I have.

Why would my joining instructions have a reference to this MARCORD 9-61 if I'm not supposed to get this promotion to A/Cpl?

Today I spoke to a clerk who has my file now and I was told that they didn't know anything about the NCM SEP and they want me to contact the previous clerk because the clerk doesn't want to research the program and waste more of my time.

 

[GeorgeD]

The thing is, it all comes down to qualifications. If you have college diploma or if you are NCMSEP that excuses you from POET only, and it does not guarantee that you will get A/Cpl before you are qualified to be promoted to the rank. Again, it's only my understanding, but it means that after 4 years you will have necessary time in to be promoted but will not necessarily have qualification for promotion. Not everyone will get QL3 right after Graduation, and not everyone will get only 4 months OJT before QL5. Some people might have to sign another contract before they go to QL5. Also even if promoted to A/Cpl you will be Cpl(B) Thus getting Cpl pay, but not the spec pay. But I will again point out this is just my understanding.

 

[Pusser]

There is something a little strange here.  Why would a MARCORD discuss LCIS Tech training?  MARCORDS are Maritime Command Orders (i.e. Navy) and LCIS Tech is an Army occupation, over which the Navy has no control or concern.

 

[Occam]

There is something a little strange here.  Why would a MARCORD discuss LCIS Tech training?  MARCORDS are Maritime Command Orders (i.e. Navy) and LCIS Tech is an Army occupation, over which the Navy has no control or concern.

It's likely the MARCORD is a reference on the message, but it's likely a "canned" message used for all NCM-SEP candidates, regardless of service affiliation.  The MARCORD only applies to Naval candidates (who were formerly under METTP and NCSTTP - which got rolled into NCM-SEP when the program went CF-wide).

 

[Pusser]

It's likely the MARCORD is a reference on the message, but it's likely a "canned" message used for all NCM-SEP candidates, regardless of service affiliation.  The MARCORD only applies to Naval candidates (who were formerly under METTP and NCSTTP - which got rolled into NCM-SEP when the program went CF-wide).

Understood, but if he's looking to the MARCORD as the authority for his situation, this could be part of the problem and the reason his clerks don't seem to know what's going on.  Folks don't speak "Navy" well outside of Halifax and Esquimalt.

 

[GeorgeD]

There is a book that has all the trades eligible for the program and all of the approved schools as well as a general outline of the first few years, but I don't think it is for anything other than information to potential recruits. And the fact is that it states LCIS Tech is promoted to A/Cpl on completion of QL4/OJT and gets spec pay after QL5. I just checked it and if anyone wants to see the booklet PM me your email and I will send it to you.

 

[Occam]

Understood, but if he's looking to the MARCORD as the authority for his situation, this could be part of the problem and the reason his clerks don't seem to know what's going on.  Folks don't speak "Navy" well outside of Halifax and Esquimalt.

Agreed, there will be another reference which spells out the trade progression for NCM-SEP outside the Naval MOSIDs.

 

[Occam]

I just took a look at the document that GD was offering out - that is indeed the policy document which spells out trade progression for all of the NCM-SEP trades (otherwise known as "NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS – SUBSIDIZED EDUCATION PLANS OCCUPATIONS LIST"). 

I wanted to get a peek at it as I had seen it before but don't have a copy at home.  Looks like LCIS doesn't get their A/L Cpl until at least the four year mark and QL4 status, while the Naval trades (and some others) get it immediately on successful completion of the second year of subsidized training.  No wonder the Sigs branch is having a hard time with recruiting...

 

[abruent85]

Agreed, there will be another reference which spells out the trade progression for NCM-SEP outside the Naval MOSIDs.

Here are the Refs from my joining instructions

A. A-PM-245 CHAP 11
B. CFAO 209-28
C. CBI 204.30
D. CMP INSTR 10/06 NCM-SEP - 11 JUL 06
E. CFAO 49-4
F. DAOD 5049-1
G. MARCORD 9-61
H. ADM (HR MIL) INSTR 05/05 ANNEX G APPENDIX 1
I. DCS 3 001 211350Z JUN 07

I've looked up every reference and the only one showing a Career Profile is the MARCORD 9-61.

I've seen the NCM SEP Occupation List documents before but they weren't around when I joined, so the only reason why I think they made reference to the MARCORD was to show that my Career Profile should be the same as the NCSTTP.

 

[Occam]

I don't think that is a correct assumption.  There are quite a few trades who do not get promoted to A/L Cpl upon graduation from subsidized training.