Prohibition of non-issued boots?

[chrisf]

I still don't understand why they can't make a general issue of black jungle boots anyway, say, for wear with summer dress only.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

There is running in Cmbt boots in the field pure and simple.  There is not suppossed to be running in garrison.

 

[KevinB]

That's odd Kev because we were told we could wear black JB's in garrison (I think because the DCO wears them all the time).

Ya - you guys in butt fuck nowheresville seem to beat to your own drummer.

No joy on the NSN for the Bolle's T800's

 

[Infanteer]

The headshed spits these CANFORGENs out every year - I remember the last one (about a year ago) that outlawed any non-issue digital cam (or something to that effect) because of the "IR Resistant nature" of CADPAT.  Or how about the 3VP Battlegroup on OP APOLLO getting nasty-grams for modifying the helmets to accept NVGs.

It seems that, most of the time, the pointy end smiles and nods....

Perhaps this is what happens when you have 70 Generals, a few hundred full Colonels and over 500 CWO's - someone is bound to go looking for new petty rule to enforce like what boots are being worn.  I hope there is some sort of professional satisfaction gained from doing so.... :

Infanteer, of the "Shut Up and Die Ranks" Alumni

 

[TCBF]

"Or how about the 3VP Battlegroup on OP APOLLO getting nasty-grams for modifying the helmets to accept NVGs."

Actually, the most heat was over the guys who cut the mag pockets off the front of their shirts and sewed them on the sleeves of their upper arms.  I think trimming the rim of the bush hat by a few rings (though not as much as "Bung" in The Odd Angry Shot) came a close second.

Tom

 

[Infanteer]

Our very own "Artist-formally-known-as-Bartok5" had some nice things to say about NDHQ and kit - I'm betting this "Boot" CANFORGEN came from the same place:

Army Medic,

Believe it.   As OC Cbt Sp Coy 3 PPCLI, I was sufficently "connected" within the BG HQ to know exactly what was going on regarding kit as well as everything else that affected the BG before, during and following the deployment.

I could relate numerous stories of borderline criminal betrayal by the Land Staff at NDHQ regarding kit for the first Afghan deployment.   E-mail exchanges between Adm Coy 3 PPCLI, Cbt Sp Coy 3 PPCLI, and NDHQ DLR exist which do not cast a positive light on the Army procurement system.   Big surprise, eh?

Perhaps an example is in order.   We ordered something so simple as Surefire flashlights with a pressure-activated switch back in October 2001, in anticipation of our deployment.   We were told "wait for it, they will be delivered in-theatre no later than April 2003".   The April promise carried on after we deployed in Jan 2002, and continued until April (and our first battalion combat air assault) had come and gone.   In May 2002, our 2IC Adm Coy asked DLR what the hold-up was.   The answer was that there was such a demand for the product, that the Canadian Army was way down the priority list for delivery.   We probably wouldn't see them.   Our 2IC Adm Coy got so frustrated that he called Surefire Inc in the USA directly by satphone.   They rep he talked to told him that they could have 1200 Surefires with mounts in-theatre via DHL (think international Purolator, flying directly into Kandahar 2x per week) within 10 days.   All we need to provide was a credit card number. So much for being at the back of the line....

Or how about another example?   The commander Canadian Joint Task Force South-West Asia (JTSFWA) BGen Gauthier visited the Battlegroup in Kandahar in May 2002.   I personally asked him why I had read in the on-line Winnipeg Sun that the first production run of Arid Regions CADPAT was done, yet was not available to the Battlegroup for combat operations.   BGen Gauthier's response was that I must be wrong.   Hmmmm - don't think so.   A week after the General departs, our LO in BG HQ gets a "brown envelope" via e-mail from a buddy in Petawawa confirming that 1200 sets of AR CADPAT are stockpiled at base clothing stores in anticipation of a 3 RCR roto.   The clothing could have been DHL'ed to 3PPCLI BG within 10 days.   But instead, the government waffled over a rotation and DND kept a close hold on the desert CADPAT uniforms. 3 PPCLI BG launched its final combat operation into Zabol Province on "Canada Day", July 1st 2002.   The "powers that be" had elected not to send us the uniforms we needed because they were too frigging cheap to write them off for the final month of combt operations.   Had anyone taken a shot, it would have been grounds for a class-action lawsuit against the federal government.

There are numerous other examples of how 3 PPCLI BG was left out to dry during the Army's first deliberate combat operation since Korea.   I could quite literally, go on and on.   It is embarassing, and utterly shameful.

Quite frankly, if it hadn't been for our "parent" U.S. Brigade taking care of us with loans of armoured HMMVWs, MREs, etc, etc, we'd have been royally screwed.   The Canadian "system" failed 3 PPCLI Battlegroup repeatedly, and if not for the good graces of our U.S. comrades, catastrophically.   Al NDHQ cared about was whether or not we would "ruffle feathers" in the media by doing something stupid.   NDHQ was an impediment to progress in Afghanistan. They offered nothing of value.   Zero, zip, nada, zilch.   If anything, they were a completely superfluous pain in the *** .

I won't even get into the utterly ludicrous direction we received for an alcohol policy governing our sole, 3-day R&R in *****.   Wll, OK - yes I will.   It amounted to a total of three days off in 6 months of offensive and defensive combat ops. 3 x deliberate battalion air-assaults against a (supposedly) determined enemy, constant threat of rocket, mortar and truck-borne IED attacks during 6 months of defensive operations at KAF, endless mounted & dismounted combat patrols through the most heavily mined real estate in the world, covert OP insertions and extractions, etc, etc.   Living 2 men in a 40man recce tent for 6 months, eating IMPs/MREs every day, etc, etc, etc.   And then when we devise a 3-day R & R rotation to *****, the direction from NDHQ is "2 per man per day" because the Airforce is stationed in ***** and it is therefore deemed to be an "operational theatre".   Give me a frigging break.....The only danger in ***** was alcohol poisoning if you happened to be in the Airforce, living in a (I **** you not) 4-star hotel on a per-diem.   And they told us 2 per man per day, so as not to upset the Airforce types in their 4-star hotel rooms.....

Well, I could go on and on, but I no doubt already sound like a whiner.   Be that as it may, everything I've said here is the honest truth from the perspective of a senior officer in 3 PPCLI BG.   If "they" want to fry me, they can fill their friggin boots.   Quite frankly, I could give a flying ****.

I just hope that the next crew gets better support from NDHQ while they are directing traffic and dodging car-bombs in Kabul.   Lord knows, 3 PPCLI BG didn't get squat aside from panicked questions from the "grown-ups" when we were out there actually trying our ****ed best to kill terrorist scum-bags.   Let's all hope that 2 CMBG has a better go.  

Bartok

Oh, I forgot to mention that the troops deployed on the G-8 tasking in Kannaskis had the next generation moncular NVG that 3 PPCLI had ordered for the Afghan deployment.  Apparently the state-of-the-art night vision gear worked flawlessly  for watching miscellaneous wildlife and RCMP members fornicating in the wilds.

Overseas, we had the old AN-PVS7 binocular night vision goggles, with the inane and unworkable "soft" head harness.  No helmet mount, despite repeated requests for a compatible mount dating back to October 2001.  To add insult to injury, the NDHQ Life-Cycle Manager for night vision gear had the utter gall to get "pissy" when we promptly butchered those ludicrous head harnesses to cut out the mounting block and fabricate our own improvised in-theatre helmet mounts.  The LCMM for night vision was only marginally more removed from reality than the helmet Life-Cycle Manager, who threw a conniption fit because we screwed holes in the front of our  helmets to affix our rudimentary "home-brewed" NVG mounts.....

Needless to say, at the time we were horribly distraught that some NDHQ-based low-shoe-wearing staff dork was upset with us "illegally" modifying issued gear.  We could almost hear the shrill bleating from 101 Col Bye Drive, half a world away in the desert of Afghanistan. I can tell you that I personally experienced many sleepless nights fretting over what the "grown-ups" might think about the very same soldiers that they had effectively abandonned, using their initiative to modify kit so that it would actually work in the real world.....not.

As I said, it goes on and on.  I have plenty of validated stories in this vein, all of which smack of abject betrayal by "the system".  Am I bitter?  No, but some things need to be said.  Those who hang out here with delusions of grandeur should know precisely what they are getting themselves into.  Champagne dreams, on a Kraft Dinner budget.  Watch and shoot....

Bartok

 

[TCBF]

Man, that bring back memories...

Me and my Bravo c/s come back with our two Coyotes from one of the 80 km "pushing out the bubble" patrols.  We then wait and help the mechs change my right-front McPherson strut - complete.

Go easy, they told us, there is only one more spare...

This, while I was waiting for the drive motor that changes my Coyote Turret thermal sight picture from wide FOV to narrow FOV.  Only took six weeks.  But hey, we waited eight weeks for an engine.

Tom

 

[Infanteer]

But did you make sure that you were wearing issued boots throughout all of this?

 

[TCBF]

Oh yes, and cammie (but not desert cammie, of course) shower shoes in the shower (which was a black bag. I didn't get to "camp shower" until July).  And brown US t shirts because our "Mid tour socks and t shirts issue" turned into the "end tour socks and t shirts issue"

But I used a non-issue Garmin GPS to stake in the first Coyote OPs around the perimeter because I had to buy it so I would have a GPS with batteries.  The PLGR is a nice piece of kit, but when you can't take the LSD batteries on the C-5B/C-17 because they might make the friggin plane blow up.  But, the guys with the red arm bands with the yellow wheels on them (henceforth known as the universal symbol of a pathological liar) says "Dont worry, your batteries will be waiting for you when you get there!"

OK, pal, I think, "Thanks for coming out!" because I am commanding the first Coyote into Kandahar on 3 Feb 02 and the btys werent on that C-17 were they?  Three weeks later: "You guys need  batteries for your GPSs?"

Right.

Tom

 

[mover1]

I am a pathological liar and I happened to be one of those AIR FORCE types who stayed in the Four Star Hotel. Which was dry and we had a curfew to be in by midnight but if you paid the little security guy in at the staff entrance you could get in for a few dollars without the fun police getting you in the lobby or just spend the night with a hooker they were nice and inexpensive and stayed at nice three star hotels.

      We were under the two beer per day because that was an ARMY rule. To be enforced in theater. The Navy had no rule when their ships came into port. Hell  they were even allowed in for duty free. Plus our R&R location had a drink all you want rule just don't leave the resorts compound. So I think whoever made said rules made a bad one.

      Now I know you might be hating the airforce. But it is the nature of the beast that we stay in hotels when we go away. ( Thats why I took my LOTP) We aren't army and we are by no means tactical when we deploy. The only weapons we see are the ones the MP's have and the ones that you guys locked up in the sea cans behind supply.

            As for your supply problems in Kandahar. All of your equipment was sent to East Dover AFB to be loaded on the C-17s. Canadian Equipment got last priority. 

Remember the mail?

Sorry you didn't have any batteries. Were they booked on the flight? Did your UEO identify them on your dangerous goods manifest. If not then they would have been bumped.

Sorry about your having to rough it in a war.

 

[Haggis]

This sure turned into a "let's bash the NDHQ types who just don't get it" thread.

I'm at work now and have found the offending message. I won't re-print it here but it's:

CANFORGEN 016/05 CLS 001/05 261806Z JAN 05
DRESS POLICY AND ENTITLEMENT - CTS FIELD COMBAT CLOTHING AND EQUIPMENT

 

[Meridian]

Great, so according to that CANFORGEN, I have no jacket that I can wear with my combats because it says you can't mix OD and CADPAT and since they won't give me a Goretex jacket, I guess I'm SOL. Oh well, rules are rules I suppose.

Apparently it is not an issue for the Gold Bar Boys here in Ottawa because I see OD jackets with Cadpat all the time.

I see OD jackets and DEU's even more frequently.

 

[George Wallace]

Apparently it is not an issue for the Gold Bar Boys here in Ottawa because I see OD jackets with Cadpat all the time.

I see OD jackets and DEU's even more frequently.

Them that make the rules - can break them!  Funny how they can MIX Dress in NDHQ and the National Capital Region - Great show for all our Foreign Visitors.

 

[Steel Badger]

Yea verily should we not point the finger of recrimination at the worthies inhabiting the sacred precincts of Colonel By Drive.

Yea, even though the state of their rainments would cause event the most hardened RSM to break down and cry tears of agony;

Yea even though they bask and frolic through the Rideau Centre, hatless and in such great states of dissarray such that they maketh the Airforce and the denziens of John's Trout farm appear to be guardsmen.....

We, brethern, must not be swayed by their example......nay not even when they come forth from their dank offices dress in Deu with Oxfords and CADPAT Jacketry.......We must not give in!

 

[Meridian]

I must admit, I live on the same block as the Airforce HQ? (at least it has the airforce logo on some of the doors) so it is the lads in blue (well, not so much blue, but more green cadpat, but I digress) that I see the most....  although it is true, the Rideau Centre is awash in berets of all colours of the rainbow associated with a multitude of green, cadpat, black and blue, withe the occaisional white.


Secondary question - Why is it the navy can never have a properly formed beret? Is it because they wear it so infrequently that it must look like a disheveled puff pastry?  Nothing like seeing a LtCmdr with a puff-ball beret on his head on the bus-ride home.

All of this must do wonders with the impressions of the ambassadors and diplomats roaming Ottawa streets.

 

[AmmoTech90]

Look!!!

There's a new slip on for use with CADPAT!

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/community/MapleLeaf/vol_8/vol8_12/812_07.pdf

 

[KevinB]

             As for your supply problems in Kandahar. All of your equipment was sent to East Dover AFB to be loaded on the C-17s. Canadian Equipment got last priority.  

Remember the mail?

Sorry you didn't have any batteries. Were they booked on the flight? Did your UEO identify them on your dangerous goods manifest. If not then they would have been bumped.

Sorry about your having to rough it in a war.

Gee and I can't understand why people like us hate WOG's...


Maybe if you realised it was a WAR - some of your chicken shit little safety nazi policies could have been relaxed?

My first major run in with the Safety Nazi's made me conclude that if we ever tried an Entebbe style raid - we'd need about 80 fricking Herc's.  DART to RWANDA circa Nov'96.  Sorry troops can't take ammo and POL on a plane with Troops -- OKAY - you want me to wait in Rwanada for a WEEK until the next chalk comes with no ammo, pyro or POL?

And you stay in a HOTEL 

War is hell right    :

 

[Haggis]

The dress regs allow wearing the IECS and ICE jackets and parkas with DEU with the exception of parades.  Yes, it looks like crap, but it's the best winter jacket we've got and a damn sight less socially insulting that wearing a greatcoat with a kilt.  You look like a bloody flasher!

The standard of dress in the NCR runs the scale from "not bad" to "abysmal" with limited instances of "aceptable" and "excellent".  Those with the best dress usually come from the "hard" trades in each environment.  In an effort to raise the standard of dress in the NCR, last fall it was directed that all Warrant Officers and above will wear DEU on a daily basis.  Not a lot of folks are happy about this.  The least affected are those people who formerly wore DEU to work and still don't shine thier shoes, cut their hair or press their trousers.  If they were a bag of shyte before the change, they've remained one afterwards.

I'm lucky. In my building I have a CWO who takes dress seriously (and he's Air Force... but he's a jumper.)  Unfortunately this only accounts for about 65 members in the entire NCR.  Gotta start somewhere!

 

[Meridian]

I wondered about that Haggis because I remember reading an NCR joining instructions type sheet that clearly outlined that DEU's were the Dress of the day every day for WOs & O's.

But I still see Officers in Cadpat all the time... (although it is moreso junior NCMs)... does the instruction not apply to Reserve officers on posting or something of that nature (im talking daytime here, not Evenings while people are on their way to the armoury)

 

[mover1]

Gee and I can't understand why people like us hate WOG's...


Maybe if you realised it was a WAR - some of your chicken crap little safety nazi policies could have been relaxed?

My first major run in with the Safety Nazi's made me conclude that if we ever tried an Entebbe style raid - we'd need about 80 fricking Herc's.   DART to RWANDA circa Nov'96.   Sorry troops can't take ammo and POL on a plane with Troops -- OKAY - you want me to wait in Rwanada for a WEEK until the next chalk comes with no ammo, pyro or POL?

And you stay in a HOTEL  

War is heck right     :

        War is heck alright. And there was a realization to that fact in theater. All herc flights to Afghanistan were done under what is called a combat load. That means screw the regs and get the suff over there ASAP. 
However the stuff that went from Canada to ***** needs to be properly documented and diplomatic clearances are needed for every country you overfly.  American rules are more strict than our own.
Sorry but thems the rules.

As for dreaming of doing an Entebbe style raid. You would still only need three Hercs like the original plan. Unless you were bringing some useless crap that you bought at the surpluss store or Crappy tire. Like a laptop, GPS, extra danner boots, lazer pointers, some new gadget that you think you need but don't. Don't forget the average Israeli in 1973 was smaller than todays average Tim Hortons going CF Member.