Premier Ford To Use "Notwithstanding" Against Education Staff- split fromFreedom Convoy Protests

[dapaterson]

Exactly. And private schools, by concentrating students requiring additional supports in the public system, tend to increase the costs of the public system.

 

[Eaglelord17]

From a legal standpoint I wonder if you could argue that imposing a contract on someone is against their pre-1867 rights and as such the NWC is invalid to use upon that.

 

[Remius]

From a legal standpoint I wonder if you could argue that imposing a contract on someone is against their pre-1867 rights and as such the NWC is invalid to use upon that.

I would argue that the NWC was never meant to be used pre emptively but seems like some premiers are changing that narrative.

 

[Remius]

If you do not have to worry about supporting weaker or special needs students, your costs go down, and you increase cost and strain on the system that remains.

Costs are borne by the ones paying. Taxes are still collected on families that opt for private school options. The public system is still designed based on what it can support provincially regardless of how many are in private schools.

Full disclosure that I put my kid through private school. And I would do it again. He was a kid that needed extra help and he got it. I am doubtful the public system would have met those needs effectively.

I would argue that when they went to an inclusive system they messed up. Kids that need help don’t get what they need and kids that can excel are being held back.

 

[lenaitch]

Likely won’t make a difference. 2, 7 and 15 will likely suffice to allow the creation of offences. 8-14 are all of a criminal procedural nature; of course 8, 9 and 10 we’re well familiar with; 11-14 deal with things like presumption of innocence, right to an interpreter, self-crimination, lots of procedural stuff. Basically it just means that any prosecution for newly created offences would proceed as per existing offences.

I suspect you are right, although it might be viewed as a chink in the legal wall that gets a court to at least take a look at it from the perspective that the declaration is invalid because it differs in form from Section 33. A sympathetic bench who feels the legislation has a bad fish smell might give them an ear. It was also suggested that Section 12 ('cruel and unusual treatment or punishment') is exposed. While clearly 'punishment' is not involved here (yet), the concept of 'treatment' has apparently not be widely adjudicated.

I would argue that the NWC was never meant to be used pre emptively but seems like some premiers are changing that narrative.

I get what you are saying and it's probably a matter of semantics, but the NWC can only be used prospectively ('forward looking'). If the government had passed the legislation without the Section 33 declaration and later added it by amendment, it would only operate from that point forward. Clearly, and I think this is what you meant, the legislation itself is unnecessarily preemptive.

 

[lenaitch]

I know teachers who have been in both systems. There are pros and cons to working in both systems.

I have been told stories of private school teachers being put under incredible pressure to bump the grades of students of parents who happen to be wealthy benefactors of the school. And you had better believe their employment was on the line.

That would never happen in a public school.

OTOH, teachers in private schools generally have more resources, smaller classes and more freedom to achieve the curriculum in a manner that they choose.

Pay may or may not be better- it depends on the dynamics of various school boards, seniority and which private school they work for.

The was an interesting series of articles in the Toronto Star a week or so ago about 'grade creep' over the past couple of decades. One of the articles attached.

An explosion in A+ students: Grades are rising at GTA high schools — here’s what it means for your kids

GTA high schools are handing out higher marks than ever before, a Star analysis finds. Is runaway grade inflation holding top students back and setting others up to fail?

www.thestar.com

 

[brihard]

I suspect you are right, although it might be viewed as a chink in the legal wall that gets a court to at least take a look at it from the perspective that the declaration is invalid because it differs in form from Section 33. A sympathetic bench who feels the legislation has a bad fish smell might give them an ear. It was also suggested that Section 12 ('cruel and unusual treatment or punishment') is exposed. While clearly 'punishment' is not involved here (yet), the concept of 'treatment' has apparently not be widely adjudicated.

I believe s.33 allows a government to not withstand any or all of that range of rights. It wouldn’t make sense to say it must be all or none; on the contrary it’s way more sound from a policy standpoint to only notwithstand the bare minimum necessary, to lessen the inherently oppressive nature of using s.33.

 

[Brad Sallows]

If you do not have to worry about supporting weaker or special needs students, your costs go down, and you increase cost and strain on the system that remains.

Yes, [the private system] costs go down. No, [the public system] cost and strain don't increase because [its] starting position is that [it has] the cost and difficulties of all students. Every student taken out is a cost/strain decrease.

 

[Brad Sallows]

I would argue that the NWC was never meant to be used pre emptively but seems like some premiers are changing that narrative.

If it wasn't written down, it wasn't meant. Hopeful ruminations of people who were there at the time don't count.

 

[brihard]

Update: the Ontario Labour Relations Board has concluded its hearing regarding the government application to declare the strike illegal. Some sort of short form decision is expected tonight.

Once that decision comes down, each side will have to decide its next move.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Just a quick question. If the ORLB rules against the union, will the people arguing the union position here accept the results? Just wondering.

 

[Remius]

Just a quick question. If the ORLB rules against the union, will the people arguing the union position here accept the results? Just wondering.

I’m not arguing for the union position. However I support their right to collective bargaining in good faith.

The law is clear in this case I think. But it does not make it right.

I think their demands were way to high, but I think the gvt did not negotiate or handle this in good faith. It will be interesting to,see how any future labour négociations go after this.

 

[brihard]

Just a quick question. If the ORLB rules against the union, will the people arguing the union position here accept the results? Just wondering.

“Accept the results” in the sense of acknowledging that that’s the ruling the OLRB made, sure. I won’t stomp my feet, throw my teddy in the corner, and pretend it was a legally invalid result, or that there was corruption or corruption or anything. I know that the OLRB exists in strict legal confines with a specific mandate and that the use of s. 33 has both limited the board’s options, and badly disconnected ‘legal’ from ‘right’ in this case. The OLRB certainly cannot change my opinion about the wrongness of the government’s actions. If CUPE continues to strike on Monday despite an hypothetical adverse ruling from OLRB tonight, I will not condemn them for that.

 

[YZT580]

The $39k has been quoted as an average (a mean, specifically). If you have different figures you can quote and source for this specific bargaining unit, please by all means I’m interested to see them. I have yet to see the government side “well, actually…” that aspect of this, and it seems likely that they either directly or, through sympathetic media proxies, would have. But I’m open to looking at any facts presented so long as they can be shown to be credible.

Sorry, but it took me a while to locate figures as opposed to a news article. An on-line service entitled Salary Expert lists the starting salary for janitors, teacher's assistants at 32,000 with annual increments up to a maximum of 49,000 after 8 years so 39,000 would click in around maybe 3 or 4 years. It may be the mean level but it is probably not the mean earnings. Librarians start at 52,000 and rise t0 89000 after 8 years. For secretaries the earnings start at 37,000 rising to 59,000 again in 8 years.

 

[brihard]

Sorry, but it took me a while to locate figures as opposed to a news article. An on-line service entitled Salary Expert lists the starting salary for janitors, teacher's assistants at 32,000 with annual increments up to a maximum of 49,000 after 8 years so 39,000 would click in around maybe 3 or 4 years. It may be the mean level but it is probably not the mean earnings. Librarians start at 52,000 and rise t0 89000 after 8 years. For secretaries the earnings start at 37,000 rising to 59,000 again in 8 years.

And did this ‘Salary Expert’ website attributes those figures specifically to the CUPE 4400 bargaining unit? Or cite any sources doing so? And did you catch a full cross section of the jobs represented?

 

[Remius]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1589450515104272386

Going to get worse before it gets better.

 

[brihard]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1589450515104272386

Going to get worse before it gets better.

Ford’s likely been given some really, really shitty advice, but he still owns his actions. He’s managed to take a simple CUPE 4400 labour dispute issue, and turn it into a much bigger deal through Bill 28 and the Notwithstanding Clause. He’s testing the population’s willingness to be governed by bad law in a way we rarely see.

He’s early in a majority government. He can walk this back, spin it as listening to the people or some other feel good quasi-populist crap, and extricate himself from it and survive this politically. But he needs to smarten up RIGHT quick, sacrifice a couple compelling figures to the underside of a bus (seeya Lecce), and figure out a way to patch some major social rifts. The simple fact that he’s shown himself willing to do this is going to dog him politically. Having a public sector general strike on his record would be less than ideal.

Still waiting for word on the OLRB’s ruling tonight… they should be emailing the parties the quick version of the decision, whereupon word will get out almost immediately. Best case they exercise some discretion, elect not to rule the strike illegal, and direct the parties back to the table. But that may be more discretion than they feel empowered to exercise. I don’t envy the OLRB adjudicators having to make this call.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Ford’s likely been given some really, really shitty advice, but he still owns his actions. He’s managed to take a simple CUPE 4400 labour dispute issue, and turn it into a much bigger deal through Bill 28 and the Notwithstanding Clause. He’s testing the population’s willingness to be governed by bad law in a way we rarely see.

He’s early in a majority government. He can walk this back, spin it as listening to the people or some other feel good quasi-populist crap, and extricate himself from it and survive this politically. But he needs to smarten up RIGHT quick, sacrifice a couple compelling figures to the underside of a bus (seeya Lecce), and figure out a way to patch some major social rifts. The simple fact that he’s shown himself willing to do this is going to dog him politically. Having a public sector general strike on his record would be less than ideal.

Still waiting for word on the OLRB’s ruling tonight… they should be emailing the parties the quick version of the decision, whereupon word will get out almost immediately. Best case they exercise some discretion, elect not to rule the strike illegal, and direct the parties back to the table. But that may be more discretion than they feel empowered to exercise. I don’t envy the OLRB adjudicators having to make this call.

Now this is CBC NS so take that with a grain of salt.

But listening to them over breakfast today they said 55K teachers and support were going on strike today... Is that correct?

 

[Remius]

Now this is CBC NS so take that with a grain of salt.

But listening to them over breakfast today they said 55K teachers and support were going on strike today... Is that correct?

As far as I know this strike action today involves up to 55k. But it isn’t teachers. It’s support staff and ECEs.

 

[brihard]

Now this is CBC NS so take that with a grain of salt.

But listening to them over breakfast today they said 55K teachers and support were going on strike today... Is that correct?

CUPE 4400 is 55k educational support staff and they strike today. They began on Friday. To the best of my knowledge no teachers’ union is doing a solidarity walkout. However, there are news stories now quoting sources in the labour movement, claiming that a broader support strike is being planned for the 14th. I really hope it doesn’t come to that.

Still no word on the labour board decision.