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PM's New Bde of Peacekeepers (5,000 new soldiers), could it be a SOC Light Force?

bossi

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Grit defence plan out of reach: experts
'They're going to have a real problem with personnel,' army colonel says
 
Chris Wattie
National Post
Tuesday, June 15, 2004

TORONTO - Liberal promises on defence will not only cost more than $8 billion and take more than a decade to fulfil, but Armed Forces staff have no idea how they will raise, equip and pay for 5,000 new troops.

While the Liberals have criticized Conservative campaign pledges to spend billions on the military, experts said their own promise to add a full brigade to the army will be almost as expensive and likely more difficult to fulfil, especially with no guarantee of additional funds for the hard-pressed defence budget.

"It came as a bit of a surprise, probably, to the guys in the Department of National Defence," said Col. Howard Marsh, a former senior army staff officer. "But I'm sure the planners are going to make the Liberals' eyes water once they start doing the numbers up on this."

Prime Minister Paul Martin promised last week to add the 5,000-strong new brigade to the Forces, along with another 3,000 part-time soldiers for the army reserves. The promises, which came a week after the Tories unveiled their ambitious defence policy, also promised to emphasize the military's peacekeeping role.

The Conservatives have pledged an additional $5.5 billion over five years for the defence budget, another 27,000 troops and new transport aircraft and hybrid carriers -- ships that could act as helicopter carriers and troop transports.

Col. Marsh said the idea of a new brigade was a good one, but said it will take eight years of spending just to bring the overworked and understrength army up to a level at which the new unit could be formed -- preparations he estimated would cost about $800 million a year.

"It's one of those promises you can make and you don't have to write any cheques for another seven or eight years," he said. "It will take that long just to get up to the starting point ... before you can start thinking about adding another 5,000 people."

The Liberal promise of additional reservists, for example, was first made in 2000. So far, the army has managed to add only 750 part-time soldiers.

The Forces currently has just more than 53,000 regular force soldiers, sailors and airmen on strength, well short of its authorized total of 60,000. Attempts to recruit more troops have all but overwhelmed the military's training system, said Col. Marsh, and senior staff officers expect it will take until 2012 to bring the Forces to full strength.

"To expand to add another 5,000 trained officers, NCOs and men will take a long, long time," he said. "The units wouldn't be formed until 2015 ... and it will take longer to fill the ranks.

"Then you've got to equip them ... you've got to start putting about $800 million a year in the budget, starting this year, for seven or eight years before you even get started."

Col. Marsh said the new brigade will need about 350 armoured vehicles, including LAV III infantry carriers, Coyote reconnaissance vehicles, and those for combat engineers, artillery and unit headquarters, and another 900 trucks and other vehicles.

Support troops will also be needed, adding to the cost and the additional soldiers. "I don't think the prime minister realizes that to give the army a brigade of 5,000 you need another 3,500 people to support them," said Col. Marsh. "They're going to have a real problem with personnel."

A full army brigade will also need a new base, which Col. Marsh estimates will cost almost $2 billion, and equipment, including weapons and vehicles. "Unless the economy produces a surplus, these things aren't going to happen."

Sean Maloney, a professor at Royal Military College, said the Liberal defence platform appears to have been poorly thought out and hastily drawn up, largely in response to the Tory announcement.

He said the Liberal policy does not address the shortage of air and sea transport, which would leave the Forces with no way to get the proposed new brigade to overseas missions. "They haven't solved that at all," Mr. Maloney said. "It doesn't reflect serious defence policy."

Mr. Maloney said the reliance on the Forces' peacekeeping and "peace support" abilities reflects outdated thinking. "They're using the term 'peace' at every turn," he said.

"It's Cold War thinking ... the great Canadian peacekeeping myth is just that: a myth.

"Canada has never relied on peacekeeping to meet all its defence needs and never will."

Col. Marsh said it is possible a Liberal government may never have to honour the promises, if a long-awaited defence policy review expected this fall concludes a new brigade is not needed.

"Theoretically, he could make this announcement during the election campaign, then turn around" after the defence and foreign policy review is done and say, "it isn't needed."
 
Its obviously just a one-up-man-ship competition with the Tories. I wonder who will try to draw the larger number... *cough* Liberals *cough*
 
The Liberal promise of additional reservists, for example, was first made in 2000. So far, the army has managed to add only 750 part-time soldiers.

....

Col. Marsh said it is possible a Liberal government may never have to honour the promises, if a long-awaited defence policy review expected this fall concludes a new brigade is not needed.

I think we can probably all draw the same conclusions from just those two sentences....





CB.   >:(
 
I'm sick of the liberals.

Anyone watch the debate the other night? Almost every single time martin was asked a question he would just avoid it and talk about something else.  Sort of like how he is avoiding the problems with the CF with this.

>:(
 
I'm so sick of the Liberals, I've actually been pretty activist since the election call.

So far I've converted:
A UWO professor
My barber
Four of my staff

The one thing I've found interesting is that I've been challenging people on WHY they
are voting Liberal, and invariably it's because they don't know any better.   They don't
read newspapers.   They don't watch news.   They do watch American Idol.

In short, as soon as you start highlighting the Liberal Record they shift either in one
direction or the other.   If they're pro-military, pro-tax cut then they shift Conservative.

If they're more "mommy society" or have strong feelings regarding abortion or gay rights
then they shift to the NDP.

Just an observation....I don't know if anyone else has seen this or not....

Cheers,




Matthew.   ;)
 
J. Gayson said:
I'm sick of the liberals.

Anyone watch the debate the other night? Almost every single time martin was asked a question he would just avoid it and talk about something else.  Sort of like how he is avoiding the problems with the CF with this.

>:(

I saw that.  Went a little something like this.

Harper: Where is the money from the sponsorship scandal, and why is the gun registry 1 billion dollars over budget?

Martin: What's important is healthcare, not military spending.  I think women should have the right to choose.

Total BS.

Whenever he's asked about the military he just says that we're awaiting the review.  That just gives him an excuse to put it off until after the elections so he can cut the budget or not increase it later.
 
Harper is by far the only potential friend the CF have.   Gilles Duceppe's logic (as expected) goes like this - no capability until a requirement review is done, therefore no forces in place means no forces available to commit.   Not far from the liberals.   Smilin' Jack Layton never met a tax or social issue he didn't like which means the CF is so far on the back burner it's in the freezer.
Again, I'd like to point out that the resources we have allow us no economies of scale as each course is taken through on a case by case basis.   We barely have the size to maintain current ops and train new soldiers, let alone expand in size.   A more modest goal for all three services is simply to bring units up to strength so that all our ships can sail and all our battalions have four companies.   Rebuilding a fourth brigade at this point is just a pipe dream.
I'll throw out an option that I've discussed before - run all basic training locally, year round, mainly by the reserves with over sight by appropriate standards.   It costs far too much to enrol a Reg F soldier, ship them to St Jean and then fail or decide the CF isn't for them.   This should serve as a purpose for the reserves and allow RegF members greater flexibility as they won't be doing a tour then training recruits and undergoing training themselves.   Any thoughts on this?
 
Chris Wattie said:
Support troops will also be needed, adding to the cost and the additional soldiers. "I don't think the prime minister realizes that to give the army a brigade of 5,000 you need another 3,500 people to support them," said Col. Marsh. "They're going to have a real problem with personnel."
Re-rolling 4 ESR back into 4 CER would reduce some of the new man-power requirements that a new brigade would produce.

Chris Wattie said:
A full army brigade will also need a new base, which Col. Marsh estimates will cost almost $2 billion, and equipment, including weapons and vehicles. "Unless the economy produces a surplus, these things aren't going to happen."
Move 2 RCR to Petawawa & Gagetown could be home to a new brigade.   Move 2 PPCLI to Edmonton (or Wainwright) and Shilo could become the home of a new brigade.
 
Alternativly, the liberals could just have all the 3rd battalions demobalized and then build our army around four two battalion brigades, using hte extras to fill up slots. The real pain would come from trying to get the vechicles and support services, as I don't imagine combat support recruits are easy to come by.
 
Alternativly, the liberals could just have all the 3rd battalions demobalized and then build our army around four two battalion brigades

The light battalions aren't just mech battalions minus the rides, and you can't just take them away like that.  They are too important to just disband.  Also, I doubt that all of the guys in those battalions would appreciate being summarily rebadged into a new regiment in a new brigade.

Also, you're missing the point, which is that if a new brigade were to be created, it would be an action intended to increase the CF's capabilities, not decrease them.  Having four half assed brigades is no solution at all.
 
My bet is that if a new brigade is indeed created (which I'm already doubtful of), the 3rd battalion of each regiment will be transferred into this new brigade.  The mech brigades will probably be reduced to 2 infantry battalions and this new brigade will be a light brigade and if any mech. assets are included they will probably be Mine Resistant Vehicles (ie. Mamba/Cougar-Tempest/Dingo, etc.) rather than LAV III APCs.
 
Seriously, am I missing something here?  Was there any sort of a report or news story that suggested that this was actually a serious proposal?  I never heard of it, and I don't think it makes any sense at all, not only for the reasons I already stated, but because of the fact that if things were done that way, then there would not, in fact, be any increase in the number of soldiers at all, which I thought was supposed to be the point of this whole thing.  9 reg force bns/3 bdes is the same as 9 reg force bns/4 bdes, really. 
 
My rationale behind the new brigade is based on Liberal defence policy.  They can say that they created a new brigade which is entirely focused on peace support operations, but in reality they've done nothing to seriously increase the capabilities of the CFs.  The 3 mech brigades would probably be told that their 3rd infantry battalion will be re-established in the near future, and that in the interim, the reserves would be used to form the 3rd battalion in case of war.  Well the "interim" would probably become the "longterim" and the end result is that the forces become top heavier with another brigade headquarters element.

In some ways if this were the case it wouldn't be that bad IF the reg. force units were up to full strength and the reserves brought into a true "Total Force" model where they'd have access to the proper equipment necessary to fulfill the tasking of providing the 3rd infantry battalion in each mech. brigade.

What desperately needs to be fixed is the current sytem of robbing Peter to pay Paul ie. 3 PPCLI scouring 1st and 2nd Battalion in order to put together a full-strength battlegroup, etc.
 
Well then, I think we can both agree that it isn't a good idea.  This is all just speculation at this point though, so I think we might as well just watch and shoot.  I have serious doubts that we're going to be able to pull another full bde out of our asses, but until it comes to someone actually trying to pull a stunt like this, I'm not going to get worked up over it.
 
Good Idea or Bad Idea I concur with Matt.

When I look at some of the things posted on this site and elsewhere I see the following.

"6 maybe 7 Recce squadrons in the future"

"Losing all our LAVs from 2 RCR except for enough to carry a company or so"

"MBTs and M109s transferring to 1 CBG"

"Strathcona's to hold 2 MBT squadrons UNTIL MGS comes on line"

Two Brigades each composed of two reinforced light infantry battle groups comprising a 3 company light battalion with about 20-30 LAVs on strength along with a Recce Squadron, some DFS and Arty capability.  (CBGs 2 and 5)

One Brigade that somebody in the Brass is trying hard to maintain as a high intensity capability with 2 LAV battalions, 2 MBT squadrons, a Recce squadron and a 155mm arty regiment.  Battle likely to be lost and this "brigade will form up like the others. (1 CBG)  The hope could be that government policy will change between now and then.

One Brigade (PMs Peacekeepers Inc.) with one maybe two recce squadrons, a light arty capability and 3 light battalions with MPVs and trucks, maybe another 20-30 LAVs.

Note - in interest of demonstrating PM is different to JC and to improve morale "cheaply" PM will reactivate an airborne capability in the PMPKI.  Helicopters and Aircraft to follow at a later date ... start holding your breath now.

On second thougt he might actually buy some aircraft.  Response to Harper in the debate "We don't need Cold War aircraft carriers we need aircraft fro rapid mobility".

Course the election is over now  ...... no it isn't this is only a ceasefire..... the election continues and will continue until the next voting day.

Dam I'm confused and perturbed.

No Cheers today lads.



 
A new brigade? To sum it up look what just got back into power. Not going to happen soon.
 
Limpy

Look what got back in power. 

New election coming.  Need to shore up some right wing votes on the cheap? Create a new Brigade HQ (I understand NDHQ has a surplus of staff personnel) and reassign some understrength battalions for exercise purposes (1 Canadian Div out of Kingston as the Model - all staff, no troops).

Didn't say this was going to be a good solution for the soldiery.  Great solution for the politicos, especially if he reamalgamates those characters in the Maroon as his "lead" battalion.  PS don't expect a training budget.
 
Not that I believe it couldn't happen ( I'd love to see a new brigade) it would take time to do this. But your right about the NDHQ staff surplus, seems that the CF is top heavy.
 
We need a fourth brigade to fix ATOF.
Before we get a fourht brigade, we need to fix the brigades we have.  They all need TUA, they all need MGS (if not real tanks), they all need 4 rifle companies in each battalion.
 
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