Penticton Reservist (?): "It's time to end Afghanistan war"

[xena]

Cog-Diss, et al.

It's okay for you and this particular Cpl that we are discussing to have an opinion.  Everybody's got opinions.  Nothing wrong with them.  Especially if we have the wisdom and humility to realize that most of the opinions we hold are probably wrong.  The only opinions we have that are likely to be accurate, are the ones about which we are subject matter experts.  Other than that, we are usually just parroting something we've heard someone else say, or having some sort of knee-jerk reaction to a particular topic.  That's the reality of it.

This fellow, wrote a letter to the editor, which included a number of factual errors that he asserted to be true.  He also attempted to use the weight of his status as a member of Her Majesty's Canadian Forces to back up his claims, at least implicitly.

Unfortunately for him, a number of his claims have been clarified as false (see the first few pages of this thread), and identifying himself as a soldier in this manner is illegal.

His opinions, which are fine for him to hold, are what got him into trouble because he was not smart enough to keep his mouth shut.  He has not served in Afghanistan.  He is not an expert on what really goes on there.  Therefore, his opinions are flimsy at best.

His right to express said flimsy opinions are not in question.  It's the manner in which he expressed them.  He should have expressed opinions (ones based on fact!) as a citizen, not as a soldier.

Perhaps there was a certain unwarranted vehemence to some comments made here regarding this.  If one takes the fallacious nature of his claims, and couple that with the illegality of identifying himself as an Armed Forces member, it is not hard to see where some folk's outrage comes from.  We have a hard enough time countering the lies and misdirection coming from civilian sources, that we don't need some sort of "fifth column" of disinformation.

Yes, QR&O 19.36 is a good start.  From there talk to veterans (there are many here!).  Take their view on things very seriously.  They were there - they know what they are talking about.

Edited for grammatical clarity.

 

[PMedMoe]

This particular part of the QR&O applies:

(2) No officer or non-commissioned member shall do or say anything that:
 
(a) if seen or heard by any member of the public, might reflect discredit on the Canadian Forces or on any of its members;

 

[Teeps74]

So you are suggesting we set a horrible precedent of forcefully sending Reservists on overseas deployment? As well you would force this Corporal to fight in a war that he is vehemently against, practically conscripting him for it. Furthermore as someone who does not wish to be over there, he would be a detriment to his unit and the operation, as such a danger to himself and others.

There is some interesting and quite disappointing tones here of vengeance and anger. Yes he has made a mistake, and he well be dealt with in accordance with our current institutions in place. If that means discharge then so be it, but I doubt it does. He made a mistake in signing his name on to an anti-war piece, so it does not mean he deserves to lose his entire career over it. Many people have done much worse and stayed in the Canadian Forces.

Look kid, I do not expect you to understand justy how badly he violated our trust, how badly he lied, and how badly he deliberatly insulted us on the basis of his lies.

He intoned DIRECTLY that we are all war criminals.

On the grounds of what exactly? His ignorance based lies? His plain and obvious prejudice? He is a dishonorable, craven coward, attempting to play this system. I suggest he should go there, and discover the truth about what he speaks or simply STFU about things he clearly knows nothing about nor is willing to ask about.

I am almost certain that if a Corporal had sent a pro-war message, and signed his name at the bottom there would be no controversy whatsoever. I can actually guarantee that to everyone here. Even if he had lied about the facts for his pro-war message there still would be no uproar. 

You clearly do NOT know this audience.

And its quite wrong to claim that due to his opinions he has disgraced the CF, or those in it. Not at all, in fact this is good. Criticism and clarity is important in any organization and by bringing up the very valid claims of civilian casualties and the use of white phosphorous allows us to look more carefully at how we do things.

Informed criticism is not only good and healthy, it should be almost mandatory in any free society. This Cpl's "criticism" is not informed, nor researched, nor based in facts. It is a prejudiced fuelled tirade pointed directly at those he chooses to serves with. He stabbed us all in the back. If he was brave, and this was his opinion, he would have exercised his right to get out before getting on his soap box, and telling such blatent lies.

 

[Teeps74]

As a member of the CF you don't have the right to disagree with any mission the CF is involved in and you certainly don't have the right to voice your disagreement.  You have the right to follow orders and go where the government of Canada wants to send its military.  Or you have the right to release and voice your opinion whereever and whenever you want.  Please don't use the word professional to describe yourself as a member of the CF as you have a very long way to go before that happens.

QUOTED FOR TRUTH

And to add, in the event that a mission were illegal, then yes, you do have the right to QUIT and make issue of thew things you have seen. In fact, in the mission area, if you witness an illegal act, or are given an illegal order, you have a duty as indicated by the NDA to report it up the chain of command, and if necessary act to stop it.

To cog-diss: I have been there, and I have friends of absolute confidence who have been there, and those that are over there. NOTHING in what we collectively have seen and done would be considered illegal by any Canadian or international court.

Informed questions and criticisms are good. Uninformed opinion and a loud mouth, leads to the trouble seen in this thread.

The mission is legal, and mandated by UNSCR 1776 .

 

[1feral1]

Cog-Dis,

I have read all your posts in detail, and I only have one thing to say, and that is Burger King, KFC, Pizza Hut and yes, even McDonalds are always hiring.

You're in the wrong job.

Your quote sums it up. "I am quite saddened at our current civilian leadership in choosing to continue the escalate this war, but as a member of the Canadian Forces I have no comment on an ongoing military operation"

What will you do should you be deployed? Cry to the CBC with flowers in your hair, and presenting tears as big as horse turds, or fight like a man, and be a man amoung men?

As for being ashamed, I am ashamed of you.

Thank Christ you were NOT on my tour, you would not have lasted an hour!

Meanwhile, from the high ground....... op:

Peace bro, sit back and complain, while others risk everything, so innocent people can have a chance at a brighter future.

OWDU
Iraq Vet

 

[gwp]

I very much disagree with your assertion that just because I don't agree with one of hundreds of missions the Canadian Forces has been a part of that therefore I have to leave this organization. I am a professional in a government organization, not a mindless robot. I have the right to an opinion, and as long as I purvey that opinion in the proper contexts and venues (as I am doing now, not as a representative of the CF) then I am fully within my rights to do so. Furthermore as a Canadian citizen, I have a right to voice an opinion against current Canadian foreign policy, and as a member of the CF I have the right to hold constructive criticism of current operations.

That is where you stand into danger!  Where is the line between being a member of the CF and being a citizen? You have self indentified yourself here as a member of the CF. Therefore, hiding behind statements as those of a citizen is not possible as those comments become politicized in this public place.  Anyone who knows you as a CF member can no longer separate you - one from the other.  

As posted earlier in this thread.  This is important because:
 
"Political neutrality of the CF and its members is a seldom-discussed, but fundamental, principle of our constitutional democracy. Preventing the CF from becoming politicized is essential to its status as subordinate to the civil authority and to public confidence in the CF. Public expression of personal opinion on defence or related policy would create the perception of drawing CF members into the political process and undermining public confidence in the loyalty and impartiality of the CF to the Government of Canada. It is, consequently, the duty of all CF members to give loyal and impartial support to the Government of Canada - regardless of the political organization that forms the government. In practice, this means publicly explaining -- but not defending or attacking - defence or related policy. It is the responsibility of the relevant Minister to defend defence or related policy" Quote from the Senate Report on the Canadian Forces

 

[gun runner]

Cog-Diss, by the assertations you have posted in this forum.. it is my humble opinion that you are of no different character than the Cpl. in discussion on this thread. Do yourself, and all of the C.F. a favour, and turn in all of your kit, get out of the C.F., and have a happy life. You obviously have no heart for the job and are too preoccupied in bucking the system rather than playing the game by the rules. Ubique

 

[SupersonicMax]

As a member of the CF you don't have the right to disagree with any mission the CF is involved in and you certainly don't have the right to voice your disagreement. 

I have to disagree with this. You do have the right to your opinion. We're all humans and no one can force you not to have an opinion. However, as a professional, you won't let your opinion influence your decision making. Heck, how many soldier went to the media and said the mission had a purpose?  Is it not an opinion?

As far as going publicly with it, I think enough has been said in this thread.  I don't think it's illegal to do it, however I don't think this makes it right. 

 

[The Bread Guy]

In Canada, one doesn't don't punish OPINIONS, one punishes BEHAVIOUR.

As a citizen, I don't like the AFG mission = no problem
As a citizen, I say I don't like the AFG mission = no problem
As a CF member, I don't like the AFG mission = no (legal) problem 1,2
As a CF member, I say I don't like the AFG mission = problem

1 - It's not illegal to hold an opinion opposing any mission your team is participating in, but it exposes an ethical/moral problem regarding how much you really want to be in an organization doing something you really don't want to see done. 

2 - If you think you should be able to pick the missions you work on and those you don't, think how you'd feel if a cop or firefighter tried that, and YOU were the person/house said public safety official felt uncomfortable doing their job at for whatever reason.

 

[SupersonicMax]

You know, I don't think it is a problem disagreeing with the mission (or anything the CF tells you to do for that matter), as long as you are professionnal enough to do your duty.  I don't always agree with what I'm asked to do, however, I think I'm mature and professionnal enough to put my opinion aside and do it anyways to the best of my abilities.  I may or may not bring it up to the CoC or supervisor but I will still do whatever I'm asked. 

You can't agree with everything the CF does.  It's a matter of if you can get over it and still do what you're paid for.

 

[Teeps74]

You know, I don't think it is a problem disagreeing with the mission (or anything the CF tells you to do for that matter), as long as you are professionnal enough to do your duty.  I don't always agree with what I'm asked to do, however, I think I'm mature and professionnal enough to put my opinion aside and do it anyways to the best of my abilities.  I may or may not bring it up to the CoC or supervisor but I will still do whatever I'm asked. 

You can't agree with everything the CF does.  It's a matter of if you can get over it and still do what you're paid for.

And there we go, thanks Max. We all occasionally have our differences with what the bosses say. The difference between a professional and an amature, is the ability to handle said differences professionaly.

Hopefully the day will never come, but another part of this is, when someone does give that illegal order, then we do have to act. Jumping the gun, as this young Cpl has done, degrades that ability. When you have exhausted all resources to determine the legality of what is going on, then I would suggest going public would be required. That clearly is not the case here, with what this Cpl betrayer, has done.

 

[Brad Sallows]

>In the same sense we are obliged not to carry out illegal orders, we are very much obliged to have involved opinions on the subject of foreign policy and warfare.

You're welcome to have opinions on foreign policy, but not obliged to have them, let alone to express them or otherwise "involve" them.  Governments are answerable both for the decision to initiate war (jus ad bellum) and how they allow it to be conducted.  Soldiers - except occasionally those in the topmost command and staff positions who support the most egregious violations of law and custom - are answerable only for how they conduct war (jus in bello).  The latter is not at all "in the same sense" as the former.

 

[OldSolduer]

Cog-Diss:
Right to your opinion, by all means. HOWEVER, if you disagree that much with the political leadership, take your release and run for Parliament. IF you feel that strongly.
As for your assertion that we who think this war is just are mindless robots, think again junior. We've stood on the sidelines for over 30 years as "Peacekeepers", and tut-tutted the USA for their foreign policy. Now its time to pay the piper my young friend.
I lost a son in Afghanistan. He was there, in his mind, to protect the innocent. I'm of the opinion that we are fighting the good fight. Your lack of a rebuttal to this righteous cause makes me believe that you have no stomach for conflict.

 

[1feral1]

Cog-Diss:
you have no stomach for conflict.

I found another qoute of Cog-Dis as fol: "Currently I am scared shitless for the PT" (in post no.24 in his profile).

OS, I reckon you're spot on in your words above.

I think the only deploying this INDIVIDUAL will be doing is to the Q Store to turn in his kit.

We all have opinions, but I am sensing a hidden agenda in Cog-Dis, one we've all seen before  : , and quite frankly I am over it, him, and others who support/demonstrate this 'LEG' train of thought, its all rather weak/yellow, and definatly rubs me the wrong way.

He can always turn to the NDP and Libs for guidance as far as I am concerned.


Cold beers,

Wes

 

[Greymatters]

We all have opinions, but I am sensing a hidden agenda in Cog-Dis, one we've all seen before  : , and quite frankly I am over it, him, and others who support/demonstrate this 'LEG' train of thought, its all rather weak/yellow, and definatly rubs me the wrong way.

Can you amplify what you mean by 'LEG train of thought' ?

 

[1feral1]

Can you amplify what you mean by 'LEG train of thought' ?

Lacking Enough Guts

 

[Greymatters]

Copy...

 

[Jarnhamar]

Moving on I have to say I am quite disappointed and ashamed of some of the posts in this thread. While Army.ca does not represent the CF, the people here posting very much do. To those saying such disgusting and professionally shameful remarks encouraging the physical harm of another Canadian Forces member, I say you are a disgrace to the uniform, moreso than this accused "disgrace".

And I say you have your head up your ass. That's just my opinion though. Sounds like you're trying a little too hard mate.
Some members of the Canadian Forces run their mouth and other members of the CF whom recognize this kindly set the individual straight sometimes by punching them in the mouth.

Goonish, barbaric?  Well it's not something you could get away with at your artsy fartsy wine and cheese parties.  Shameful and a disgrace? You can say what you want. When you get a little more time in traveling abroad you might change what you consider shameful behavior. 
The army is a rough place. The army is a physical place. Sometimes you get yelled at by your boss. Sometimes one of your buddies punches you in the head for being an idiot.
This guy is being a class A mark one idiot and a lot of people in the army (surprise) are responding how people in the army do. You wanna champion the regiment idiot good luck.

 

[George Wallace]

Army-Goon/Cognitive-Dissonance

I find your defense of this "Cpl" totally disfunctional and confused.  I might add that your choice of nom de plumes really suck also.

 

[OldSolduer]

Army Goon/Cog-Diss:

How long you been in? I think I have some mess tins that are older than you.

Realize ONE thing: The prime purpose of an army is to kill people. Get that through your head. To necessitate this, we train young people to kill. Everything else we do or have done as an Army is SECONDARY to our mission, and that is to protect CANADA. In order to protect it, we send people to out of the way places so people like Mullah Omar and Osama are prevented from introducing their version of Sharia law to Canada.

It's not a social program, nor should it ever be a social engineering project.