Ottawa seeking ‘impartial’ board members to review military colleges

[SupersonicMax]

EPNER is a rather unique example to be using un-qualified, as though it was an “everyone flying in France speaks French, even the Americans.”

I haven’t said everyone flying in France speaks French, just used an example to show that it is entirely possible to be trained in French and be functional operationally in English.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Won't work. I was on a 10 month course in Pet in 85, and as I understood it then, it was to try and run a course without posting/IR anyone to save dollars.
Problem was after the day in class was done, everyone would go home to their English friends and family. I was the only one on the course to score "full bilingual " marks when it was done.
Why me? Because I met a girl who didn't speak English and we started dating. (eventually married)

I had to ask her out by showing her a note from my teacher and for 3 months we communicated with a phrase book. When she moved to Montreal I went every weekend and spoke it everywhere I went.

IMO, if you're not immersed in the language/culture, you're not going to learn it properly. You might learn Google app translation like a robot but not the idiosyncrasies.

The course has drastically changed since '85. From what our teachers told us it's much more difficult. Even life long French speakers were blown away with what we were expected to make BBB out of. And all examination is done through the Public Service of Canada. The CAF had no bearing on outcomes. It was easily my most challenging year. Homework every night, extra work, some folks hired tutors; and having my family speak French with me, they are bilingual.

I still get cold sweats when I feel like I haven't done homework yet... And I've been done for a year.

As for the course loading that's a whole other story, that's probably still similar to your experience.

 

[Ostrozac]

Singing while marching and savage beatings! A proven model!

Hey, I don’t have a degree in adult education - but if it works, it works! Who am I to judge?

 

[Good2Golf]

I haven’t said everyone flying in France speaks French, just used an example to show that it is entirely possible to be trained in French and be functional operationally in English.

By using a very specialized, small cadre of test pilots training in France, and downplaying the lack of applicability to countering the English used near exclusively internationally in aviation. So how many American test pilots underwent training in French in your example?

 

[SupersonicMax]

By using a very specialized, small cadre of test pilots training in France, and downplaying the lack of applicability to countering the English used near exclusively internationally in aviation. So how many American test pilots underwent training in French in your example?

Talk to any exchange pilot that flew in France. Same thing. If France can teach its military in French, why can’t we?

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Talk to any exchange pilot that flew in France. Same thing. If France can teach its military in French, why can’t we?

Read that part over again. Slowly. Really think about that question you're asking....

Could that be because they have an overwhelmingly majority of their population that has been immersed and educated in French, in a predominantly French speaking society, which they force employ and train...in French?

Next you're going to tell me that the Italians train their Naval Officers in Italian.... how very dare they!

 

[Halifax Tar]

Read that part over again. Slowly. Really think about that question you're asking....

Could that be because they have an overwhelmingly majority of their population that has been immersed and educated in French, in a predominantly French speaking society, which they force employ and train...in French?

Next you're going to tell me that the Italians train their Naval Officers in Italian.... how very dare they!

You beat me to it.

Instead we cater 22% of the population, and hinge careers on their appeasement.

 

[Weinie]

I can guarantee you that many other people in different trades think the same. It has nothing to do with elitism.

You're not reflecting, you're deflecting.

 

[QV]

You beat me to it.

Instead we cater 22% of the population, and hinge careers on their appeasement.

1/3 of francophones are functionally bi-lingual. So more like 14% of the population. The more you think about this, the more ridiculous it seems.

 

[Blackadder1916]

As we segue from a review of military colleges to officer production generally to utility of a university degree for an officer to the requirement for and quality of second language training all in the space of nine pages, I am heartened that the site continues to demonstrate the ability of Canadian leaders to focus their intellect and attenti . . . . . Squirrel!

Merde alors! Tu vois, je suis bilingue. Or I should be. I did the year long French course over forty years ago. As it was organized then (supposedly, it was the first year-long course for ORs NCMs), the first half done locally (mine was in Calgary) and the second half in St Jean - I was posted in between (to Ottawa - after two other msgs, first to the Van Doos in Lahr, and then to a ship in Halifax, both being cancelled because my then wife's CM wouldn't/couldn't post her to those locs). I finished the course with a decent profile, but I wouldn't say that I was comfortable working in French (but that may just have been my fear of sounding stupid). Despite having been posted to a couple of BUs (supposedly), in most cases they (or at least I) worked in English. If you don't practise, you lose it pretty quickly. Actually, in my last posting to NDHQ, having some ability in German would probably have been better; we were building the new hospital in Lahr, which required frequent trips to Freiburg and Lahr to liaise with the German project managers. Luckily, my boss was fluent in German; I had to resort to a cassette learning package (what I was given after it was requested I be loaded on a short German language course) and a Langenscheidt German-English dictionary to use while I reviewed the updates to the plans and specifications coming from SHBA in Freiburg.

It was actually after being posted to Germany that the best opportunity for re-picking up (see, I can sound stupid in two languages) French came about. Not because I worked in French, though the occasional interaction with the Van Doos did require some limited language ability, but because of where I lived, Schuttern. Even though the village was at the end of the runway and not far out of Lahr, it had very poor TV and radio reception for CFN (Canadian Forces Network), but I did get exceptional reception from the French networks coming across the Rhine. Therefore, my usual viewing/listening of news (especially) and entertainment was either in German or French. It did wonders for improving my comprehension of both languages, and also upped my expression ability as well. When I get the urge (not often but occasionally) to renew my grasp of those additional languages I'll force myself to exclusively tune to only the French channels and the intermittent German TV programming found out here. Though with internet and streaming services (Netflix et al) I do find myself viewing (and preferring) a lot of foreign language programs without resorting to subtitles or translation.

 

[AKa]

I have a very good friend who is a lawyer in another government department. He joined the Public Service later in life. When he joined, they asked him what his birth tongue was, and he said English. And while this was true, as a toddler his family moved and started communicating exclusively in French.

So initially, he was tested in French. After a while they figured out that he was actually a Francophone and switched to testing him in English. He said the French test was much more difficult than the English one.

I'm fairly comfortable in French thanks to my stint in charm school, but I have never been able to achieve that C in speaking. And I have given up. I make a certain effort to maintain my French capability and am now investing my GAF in learning a third language that may or may not be useful but is at least a link to my extended family.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Read that part over again. Slowly. Really think about that question you're asking....

Could that be because they have an overwhelmingly majority of their population that has been immersed and educated in French, in a predominantly French speaking society, which they force employ and train...in French?

Next you're going to tell me that the Italians train their Naval Officers in Italian.... how very dare they!

The day French is not an official language in Canada anymore, I’ll agree with you. Using the argument that aviation and naval languages are English is not a valid argument given other countries train their folks in their native, non-English language without any impact to their lethality. We owe it to our people (and the OLA mandates it top) to offer training in their FOL.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The day French is not an official language in Canada anymore, I’ll agree with you. Using the argument that aviation and naval languages are English is not a valid argument given other countries train their folks in their native, non-English language without any impact to their lethality. We owe it to our people (and the OLA mandates it top) to offer training in their FOL.

But we don't train our people in it. We claim its a requirement to move ahead then gate keep the courses. This is from a guy speaking from inside that gate.

Your argument will be valid when we truly strive to make the whole forces bilingual, not just Franco's and the English dudes and dudettes we wish to see go further. Until that point it's posturing and a filtering system.

 

[SupersonicMax]

But we don't train our people in it. We claim its a requirement to move ahead then gate keep the courses. This is from a guy speaking from inside that gate.

Your argument will be valid when we truly strive to make the whole forces bilingual, not just Franco's and the English dudes and dudettes we wish to see go further. Until that point it's posturing and a filtering system.

To me, bilingualism is increasingly more important as one leads more and more people, especially at the CO/SCWO level where you are responsible to administer admin and disciplinary measures to people. If someone is O-Listed (and the NCM equivalent) and expected to fulfil those roles, it makes sense to provide that training to them. To some respect however, it is an individual responsibility but I agree that our SLT programs may be lacking. Because our program is less than ideal however doesn’t mean we can deny the training and administration of our people in their FOL.

FWIW, I couldn’t really put a full sentence together when I joined. After prep year, I managed to learn enough to get Bs which exempted me from SLT at RMC. I never received any formal training and all of it was either by asking and being posted to English locations when waiting for training, being forced to do my training in my second language or self study. 4 years after RMC graduation, I managed to get Es. Even with Es, I find learning anything in another language extremely exhausting and it requires a lot more studying than in French.

 

[Good2Golf]

To me, bilingualism is increasingly more important as one leads more and more people, especially at the CO/SCWO level where you are responsible to administer admin and disciplinary measures to people. If someone is O-Listed (and the NCM equivalent) and expected to fulfil those roles, it makes sense to provide that training to them. To some respect however, it is an individual responsibility but I agree that our SLT programs may be lacking. Because our program is less than ideal however doesn’t mean we can deny the training and administration of our people in their FOL.

FWIW, I couldn’t really put a full sentence together when I joined. After prep year, I managed to learn enough to get Bs which exempted me from SLT at RMC. I never received any formal training and all of it was either by asking and being posted to English locations when waiting for training, being forced to do my training in my second language or self study. 4 years after RMC graduation, I managed to get Es. Even with Es, I find learning anything in another language extremely exhausting and it requires a lot more studying than in French.

So legacy F-18 training at two OTUs, one in Cold Lake and one in Bagotville, got it.

Now what about FPC on F-35s at Luke AFB? Open to being walked through the French-language program at Luke.

 

[SupersonicMax]

So legacy F-18 training at two OTUs, one in Cold Lake and one in Bagotville, got it.

Now what about FPC on F-35s at Luke AFB? Open to being walked through the French-language program at Luke.

If you read up thread, I said up to Wings Standard for pilot.

 

[Good2Golf]

If you read up thread, I said up to Wings Standard for pilot.

Does French become less importance once you have your wings?

 

[SupersonicMax]

Does French become less importance once you have your wings?

No but as primary (in the general sense, not pilot training sense) is over, and Operational Training starts, language should focus on the operating language, English in the case of aviation trades. This is the transition from « training » to « Operating ». You focus on pilot training but that’s true for almost every trade…

 

[daftandbarmy]

I think we have before us an excellent opportunity to build the French language competency of the entire CAF through proven French immersion approaches:

A 20 year commitment to Haiti

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I think we have before us an excellent opportunity to build the French language competency of the entire CAF through proven French immersion approaches:

A 20 year commitment to Haiti