Ottawa seeking ‘impartial’ board members to review military colleges

[Humphrey Bogart]

That's the "Sandhurst" model that is somewhat favoured for indoctrination and mentoring.

I did my DP1 with DEOs, UTPNCMs, ROTPs, and CFRs (being one myself). To be frank, the only main difference I saw was the divide between the ROTPs/UTPNCMs that went Civi U and the ones that went to RMC. The Civi U folks were adaptable and were willing to learn and took criticism well. The RMC ones, I felt, had a bit of a chip on their shoulder; and didn't react well to being course corrected (even by guys who had a few years behind them).

I don't know what comes next for RMC, but IMHO, the CAF would be better served to be the place where we turn out leaders that are indoctrinated in the culture of the CAF, live/eat/breath its Ethos for a year, and can the degree granting.

Nice broad brush . Even funnier coming from a Jimmy. Everyone knows what CFSCE reeaallllyyyy stand for

Three certainties in life:

Death
Taxes
Hatred for RMC Cadets

Then again, the entire CAF is a dumpster fire at the moment. RMC is just a reflection of that.

 

[daftandbarmy]

That's the "Sandhurst" model that is somewhat favoured for indoctrination and mentoring.

I did my DP1 with DEOs, UTPNCMs, ROTPs, and CFRs (being one myself). To be frank, the only main difference I saw was the divide between the ROTPs/UTPNCMs that went Civi U and the ones that went to RMC. The Civi U folks were adaptable and were willing to learn and took criticism well. The RMC ones, I felt, had a bit of a chip on their shoulder; and didn't react well to being course corrected (even by guys who had a few years behind them).

I don't know what comes next for RMC, but IMHO, the CAF would be better served to be the place where we turn out leaders that are indoctrinated in the culture of the CAF, live/eat/breath its Ethos for a year, and can the degree granting.

The one great advantage of the Sandhurst model is that all Army Officers go through it, which helps build a cohesive culture based on shared experiences... a good thing IMHO.

The RN and RAF go through their own colleges, which is one thing the Military Colleges do that the British system does not.

All that to say, we should use care when suggesting that the CAF adopt the 'Sandhurst Model'.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

The one great advantage of the Sandhurst model is that all Army Officers go through it, which helps build a cohesive culture based on shared experiences... a good thing IMHO.

The RN and RAF go through their own colleges, which is one thing the Military Colleges do that the British system does not.

The calls to "Make RMC Sandhurst!" give the credence to the CAFs JARMY ways

 

[Good2Golf]

The calls to "Make RMC Sandhurst!" give the credence to the CAFs JARMY ways

If you keep all the letters capitalized, that makes the J silent…

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Nice broad brush . Even funnier coming from a Jimmy. Everyone knows what CFSCE reeaallllyyyy stand for

Just my lived experience. There's exceptions to everything.

And yes, I know well how CFSCE functions; having been both poacher and gamekeeper at various points in my career. It's a cultural issue of its own that is under the microscope as well.

Three certainties in life:

Death
Taxes
Hatred for RMC Cadets

Then again, the entire CAF is a dumpster fire at the moment. RMC is just a reflection of that.

I don't hate RMC Cadets in the slightest. Some of the best people I have worked for are RMC grads. Some of the worst people I have served with were CFRs. It's all subjective, based on person and experience.

That said, the example I gave in my previous post was just a noticed pattern. Does it hold any weight higher up in the conceptual discussion? Who knows. Might be a holistic CAF issue and that's just the canary in the coal mine.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The calls to "Make RMC Sandhurst!" give the credence to the CAFs JARMY ways

I was waiting for someone to pick up on that. Merci.

Perhaps:

Royal Naval College of Canada - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[rmc_wannabe]

The calls to "Make RMC Sandhurst!" give the credence to the CAFs JARMY ways

Another symptom of Mr. Heyller's failed experiment.

Perhaps its time to quit deluding ourselves that Tria Juncta In Uno works as a force employment model....

 

[btrudy]

The last GOFO CANFORGEN announced a military member of the board.

Specifically, it announced a military member of the board who quite recently served as Director of Cadets at RMC. That decision alone certainly gives me the impression that "the fix is in".

Nothing new about studies/reviews/reports about RMC (a not inclusive list)

Maybe eventually one of these days the department will actually implement the recommendations by one of those reports, instead of ignoring them completely and then acting all shocked when the exact same issues which prompted all the previous reports read their ugly head again.

 

[WLSC]

So you take a bunch of teenagers, put them in a jar barely supervised, coach, mentored and you let them becoming leaders among them. You throw at them the CAF ethics without nearly enough good leader to guide them and you let them becoming GO/FO. It’s called IMHO a incestuous institutional self licking ice cream.

Those GO/FO have now (again x 10) to reform the college? They will not because they don’t see anything wrong with there Alta Matter. It need to be force on them.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Another symptom of Mr. Heyller's failed experiment.

Perhaps its time to quit deluding ourselves that Tria Juncta In Uno works as a force employment model....

And the crys of a thousand LogOs could be heard to wail...

 

[rmc_wannabe]

And the crys of a thousand LogOs could be heard to wail...

Which ones, Finance or Sustainment ?

 

[dapaterson]

If the CAF put a tenth of the effort into making "One CAF" work that they put into undermining it...

 

[markppcli]

Yes I have been these boards to understand that there have been "issues" with the schools.

But with this government.........

You can never take anything from them like this on the face of it.......I hope am wrong.

I spend my days hoping I'm wrong about a lot of things......

You’re wrong on this one. This is and has been a long time coming. The auditor general report pointed out quite critically that while enc graduates are the most expensive officers we generate, there’s no conclusive proof they are in any way better.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

If the CAF put a tenth of the effort into making "One CAF" work that they put into undermining it...

Except making "One CAF" work has been a 65 year effort of trying to ram 3 round pegs into the same square hole.

We tried the "common body of work" branch structure... it completely ignored that the work differs tremendously between the three elements.

We tried the common look and feel uniforms. It failed spectacularly and is still being corrected piece by piece because it was artificial and sterile in an organization that derives pride from unique identity.

We tried uniform command structures, that fell by the wayside too. We tried uniform procurement models, that is going swimmingly....

I think it's no longer just a matter of folks putting sticks in the spokes because reasons. There are some serious flaws that we have tried to just make work, but don't.

It's the same thing with RMC. We tried the MND10 recommendation from 1997 and now, here we are... 25 years later and our Officer Corps is about where it was leadership wise, but with a lot of time and money spent granting degrees.

The CAF never goes backward, only forward. It may be in a circle, but it only goes forward. If that means we go forward by correcting previous mistakes like Unification or the Degreed Officer Corps, so be it.

 

[dapaterson]

The biggest problem with the Degreed Officer Corps is the MilCol system, not the concept of a degreed officer corps.

 

[OldSolduer]

Except making "One CAF" work has been a 65 year effort of trying to ram 3 round pegs into the same square hole.

We tried the "common body of work" branch structure... it completely ignored that the work differs tremendously between the three elements.

We tried the common look and feel uniforms. It failed spectacularly and is still being corrected piece by piece because it was artificial and sterile in an organization that derives pride from unique identity.

We tried uniform command structures, that fell by the wayside too. We tried uniform procurement models, that is going swimmingly....

I think it's no longer just a matter of folks putting sticks in the spokes because reasons. There are some serious flaws that we have tried to just make work, but don't.

It's the same thing with RMC. We tried the MND10 recommendation from 1997 and now, here we are... 25 years later and our Officer Corps is about where it was leadership wise, but with a lot of time and money spent granting degrees.

The CAF never goes backward, only forward. It may be in a circle, but it only goes forward. If that means we go forward by correcting previous mistakes like Unification or the Degreed Officer Corps, so be it.

IMO you don't need every officer to have a degree. That's just my opinion.

IF an officer shows particular aptitude for a certain specialty that requires a degree then so be it.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

The biggest problem with the Degreed Officer Corps is the MilCol system, not the concept of a degreed officer corps.

IMO you don't need every officer to have a degree. That's just my opinion.

IF an officer shows particular aptitude for a certain specialty that requires a degree then so be it.

I agree with you both, in some cases. I find like most things in the CAF, we front load credentials and training in lieu of experience. Does a brand new baby 2Lt need a degree? I would argue not. I would say they learn more from their experience and mentoring by those who have done the business for a lot longer.

Does that mean they won't need a degree moving into sub-unit or unit command? Thats a harder question. Then again, we cover lot of that from PME in the DP structure. So it comes down to how much is it a necessity or a nice to have? Is it clout? Is it vanity?

Then we also need to explain how we still have officers in the CAF without degrees progressing just as well leading the institution without them. What makes them different/special? Experience.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Then we also need to explain how we still have officers in the CAF without degrees progressing just as well leading the institution without them. What makes them different/special? Experience.

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain

 

[dapaterson]

From a "military pay and benefits" perspective, it's much more affordable to get an OCdt or 2Lt a degree than delaying until they're a Capt or Maj.

From an institutional design perspective, perhaps we need to re-examine what jobs are done by officers, and maybe move many of them into the SNCM cadre, restricting the CAF to ~15% as officers.

 

[daftandbarmy]

From a "military pay and benefits" perspective, it's much more affordable to get an OCdt or 2Lt a degree than delaying until they're a Capt or Maj.

From an institutional design perspective, perhaps we need to re-examine what jobs are done by officers, and maybe move many of them into the SNCM cadre, restricting the CAF to ~15% as officers.

Or just note that there are several degree granting institutions that now allow 'mid-career professionals' (without Bachelor Degrees) to participate in MA level programs, mainly virtually, while holding down busy jobs etc.

Coincidentally, Royal Roads University is a great example.

The world has moved on from the need to sequester your children in institutions where they waste four, long, expensive years at a university to get a lower level degree before they really start to learn important things.... like how to lead a platoon attack