Ottawa seeking ‘impartial’ board members to review military colleges

[daftandbarmy]

Can we suggest a few NCMs, and OCTP and RESO folks, for the review Board?

Ottawa seeking ‘impartial’ board members to review military colleges​

The majority of the board tasked with reviewing Canada’s military colleges will be people who have not attended one of the schools and have not publicly expressed a strong opinion on their future, according to a recruitment posting.

A job posting on the Department of National Defence’s LinkedIn page states that the seven-member board will include five people who are not members of the public service or National Defence and two members “from the defence team.”

The five external recruits will include people with expertise in adult education, young adult development and cultural evolution and organizational change, the posting says.

The board was created in response to a report from former Supreme Court Justice Louise Arbour in May 2022.

Ottawa seeking ‘impartial’ board members to review military colleges - National | Globalnews.ca

Five external recruits will include people with expertise in adult education, young adult development and cultural evolution and organizational change, a military job posting says.

globalnews.ca

 

[dapaterson]

The last GOFO CANFORGEN announced a military member of the board.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

All appointments filled by RMC graduates I assume?

They should throw a bitter M/CPL in for some perspective.

 

[Spencer100]

Every announcement like this from Ottawa is just an way to destroy or teardown traditional Canada. It's just one more Trudeau agenda item. Grow future leaders with "correct think" or just close down or replace.

I'm not saying things at RMC can not be improved or changed. Not being close to an of the issues but I'm sure there is some> But from the current government it's all about the agenda.

I don't trust at all that their plan is "improve" military leadership in anyway helpful.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I would honestly have a few CFRs on the board, but I guess they're too "indoctrinated" to be impartial....

 

[Good2Golf]

All appointments filled by RMC graduates I assume?

They should throw a bitter M/CPL in for some perspective.

…salty Killick…

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Pick me!

 

[Fabius]

Maybe see if we can borrow one or two former Commandants or Superintendents from the US Service Academy's and the UK's Sandherst.
Different perspective, not aligned to RMC specifically yet aware and familiar with the overall reasons and objectives of a Military Academy.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Maybe see if we can borrow one or two former Commandants or Superintendents from the US Service Academy's and the UK's Sandherst.
Different perspective, not aligned to RMC specifically yet aware and familiar with the overall reasons and objectives of a Military Academy.

I remember hearing murmurs that this was the preferred COA from after the Deschamp report. Make RMCC a "finishing school" per se. Continue ROTP as an entry plan at Civy U, have members complete a 12-18 month indoctrination post grad, then release them into the wild.

It would allow for a more diverse education for certain fields, while allowing RMC to focus on the 3 other pillars that have been pushed aside.

 

[OldSolduer]

How about a retired CWO? Perhaps a panel of them headed by a well respected officer?

 

[Spencer100]

How about a PLA general?

 

[rmc_wannabe]

How about a retired CWO? Perhaps a panel of them headed by a well respected officer?

A Platoon/Troop/Flight/HOD 2ICs of the most recent RMC officers. One from each L1.

"These are the qualities I had to beat out of this young officer in our first 6 months
....."

 

[Blackadder1916]

Every announcement like this from Ottawa is just an way to destroy or teardown traditional Canada. It's just one more Trudeau agenda item. Grow future leaders with "correct think" or just close down or replace.

I'm not saying things at RMC can not be improved or changed. Not being close to an of the issues but I'm sure there is some> But from the current government it's all about the agenda.

I don't trust at all that their plan is "improve" military leadership in anyway helpful.

Nothing new about studies/reviews/reports about RMC (a not inclusive list)

Rowley Report (1969) The Report of the Officer Development Board

Withers' Reports (1998) Report of the RMC Board of Governors By the Withers' Study Group

REPORT OF THE COMMISSION ON GOVERNANCE OF THE ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE OF CANADA (2013) https://www.caut.ca/docs/default-so...ary-college-of-canada-(apr-2013).pdf?sfvrsn=0

Special Staff Assistance Visit (2017) Special Staff Assistance Visit - Report on the Climate, Training Environment, Culture and ROTP Programme at the Royal Military College of Canada – Kingston - Canada.ca

Auditor General Report 6—Royal Military College of Canada (2017) Report 6—Royal Military College of Canada—National Defence

---

And in other light reading a selection of papers from Canadian Forces College that relate to RMC specifically or a degreed officer corps generally.

ORGANIZATIONAL EFFECTIVENESS THEORY: Application to the Royal Military College of Canada in the Development of Future Officers for the Canadian Forces https://www.cfc.forces.gc.ca/259/281/271/plante2.pdf

AN EXAMINATION OF ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE OF CANADA AS A RELEVANT DEGREE GRANTING INSTITUTION https://www.cfc.forces.gc.ca/259/290/317/305/338.pdf

ADDRESSING THE CANADIAN AIR FORCE RECRUITMENT AND TRAININGISSUES WITHIN THE CONSTRAINTS OF A ‘DEGREED’ OFFICER CORPS https://www.cfc.forces.gc.ca/259/290/291/287/namiesniowski.pdf

DO OFFICERS NEED DEGREES? https://www.cfc.forces.gc.ca/259/290/289/287/mcbride.pdf

RECONSIDERING THE MINISTER’S DIRECTION THAT OFFICERS MUST HAVE DEGREES PRIOR TO COMMISSIONING (MND 10) https://www.cfc.forces.gc.ca/259/290/291/286/frank.pdf

GETTING WHAT WE ASKED FOR: AN EDUCATIONAL NEEDS ASSESSMENT FOR GRADUATE-LEVEL EDUCATION IN THE CAF https://www.cfc.forces.gc.ca/259/290/318/286/51.pdf

 

[Spencer100]

Nothing new about studies/reviews/reports about RMC (a not inclusive list)

Rowley Report (1969) The Report of the Officer Development Board

Withers' Reports (1998) Report of the RMC Board of Governors By the Withers' Study Group

REPORT OF THE COMMISSION ON GOVERNANCE OF THE ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE OF CANADA (2013) https://www.caut.ca/docs/default-so...ary-college-of-canada-(apr-2013).pdf?sfvrsn=0

Special Staff Assistance Visit (2017) Special Staff Assistance Visit - Report on the Climate, Training Environment, Culture and ROTP Programme at the Royal Military College of Canada – Kingston - Canada.ca

Auditor General Report 6—Royal Military College of Canada (2017) Report 6—Royal Military College of Canada—National Defence

Yes I have been these boards to understand that there have been "issues" with the schools.

But with this government.........

You can never take anything from them like this on the face of it.......I hope am wrong.

I spend my days hoping I'm wrong about a lot of things......

 

[Navy_Pete]

I remember hearing murmurs that this was the preferred COA from after the Deschamp report. Make RMCC a "finishing school" per se. Continue ROTP as an entry plan at Civy U, have members complete a 12-18 month indoctrination post grad, then release them into the wild.

It would allow for a more diverse education for certain fields, while allowing RMC to focus on the 3 other pillars that have been pushed aside.

Why would you need a finishing school?

DEOs come in with a degree, do trade courses and OJT and hit OFP. ROTPs do a degree, do trade courses and OJT in the summer, finish off trade courses, hit OFP.

If we got of RMC for undergrads and suddenly had all civie Us for ROTP plan, why would they then go back to RMC for random extra training?

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Why would you need a finishing school?

DEOs come in with a degree, do trade courses and OJT and hit OFP. ROTPs do a degree, do trade courses and OJT in the summer, finish off trade courses, hit OFP.

If we got of RMC for undergrads and suddenly had all civie Us for ROTP plan, why would they then go back to RMC for random extra training?

That's the "Sandhurst" model that is somewhat favoured for indoctrination and mentoring.

I did my DP1 with DEOs, UTPNCMs, ROTPs, and CFRs (being one myself). To be frank, the only main difference I saw was the divide between the ROTPs/UTPNCMs that went Civi U and the ones that went to RMC. The Civi U folks were adaptable and were willing to learn and took criticism well. The RMC ones, I felt, had a bit of a chip on their shoulder; and didn't react well to being course corrected (even by guys who had a few years behind them).

I don't know what comes next for RMC, but IMHO, the CAF would be better served to be the place where we turn out leaders that are indoctrinated in the culture of the CAF, live/eat/breath its Ethos for a year, and can the degree granting.

 

[Fabius]

In terms of officer training, if we adopted the Sandherst Model and integrated it into RMC it would look like this potentially:

Officer Basic Training at RMC equates to Sandherst Term One - 14 Weeks -

Officer Common Environmental Training equates to Sandherst Term Two - 14 Weeks. Note that future officers choose their Corps and Regiment at this point in the British Army.

Officer Common Enviromental FTXs ( New concept that would need to be fleshed out, Maybe this is all enviroment trg like Basic Winter Warfare etc.) equates to Sandherst Term Three - 14 Weeks as well.

All training done at RMC (or Satellite Campuses) the same as Sandherst, not run in St Jean, Gagetown, Borden, Esquimalt etc under all sorts of L1s. Would we perhaps have three sub elements under RMC for each element's officers?

Link to the Sandherst Officer Training Description and rough schedule: https://www.army.mod.uk/who-we-are/our-schools-and-colleges/rma-sandhurst/officer-training/

I am remaining agnostic on if the Sandherst Model is better than the full Service Academy with degree granting powers.

 

[Navy_Pete]

That's the "Sandhurst" model that is somewhat favoured for indoctrination and mentoring.

I did my DP1 with DEOs, UTPNCMs, ROTPs, and CFRs (being one myself). To be frank, the only main difference I saw was the divide between the ROTPs/UTPNCMs that went Civi U and the ones that went to RMC. The Civi U folks were adaptable and were willing to learn and took criticism well. The RMC ones, I felt, had a bit of a chip on their shoulder; and didn't react well to being course corrected (even by guys who had a few years behind them).

I don't know what comes next for RMC, but IMHO, the CAF would be better served to be the place where we turn out leaders that are indoctrinated in the culture of the CAF, live/eat/breath its Ethos for a year, and can the degree granting.

So what would civie U and DEOs get at RMC that they don't currently get in trades courses? Because I think what you are suggesting would actually extend the current training for everyone.

Just my $0.02, but the best place to indoctrinate juniour officers into the culture of the CAF, is the CAF.

I'm a DEO myself, and there doesn't seem to be any actual performance difference between RMC grads and anyone from other streams, so the OJT during DP1 seems to be fairly effective. And frankly when I was an instructor the RMC students there for the summer were incredibly life dumb and were more like high school kids compared to counterparts.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

So what would civie U and DEOs get at RMC that they don't currently get in trades courses? Because I think what you are suggesting would actually extend the current training for everyone.

Just my $0.02, but the best place to indoctrinate juniour officers into the culture of the CAF, is the CAF.

I'm a DEO myself, and there doesn't seem to be any actual performance difference between RMC grads and anyone from other streams, so the OJT during DP1 seems to be fairly effective. And frankly when I was an instructor the RMC students there for the summer were incredibly life dumb and were more like high school kids compared to counterparts.

You're asking the wrong dude. I joined as a Pte, learned the job over 15 years, and traded stripes for pips because someone thought I could do the job.

I hold no dog in this fight, however, I feel that if the CAF is hell bound to retain real estate on Pont Frederick, might as well have it be to develop and hone military leadership training, not maintaining the guise of a mediocre, military themed, academics program rife with conduct and culture issues.

 

[Fabius]

Note that for the Sandherst Model actual trades courses happen after Sandherst.

Military Basic and Environmental Basic should not be counted as trades courses.