Op IMPACT: CAF in the Iraq & Syria crisis

[Edward Campbell]

But how we employ power changed greatly since...  Strategic attacks on civilian (essentially terrorizing them so that pressure is put on the Governments to capitulate) doesn't fly anymore.  That and we're fightig an ideology, not nations with regimes using an ideology.

Both perceptive and correct, Max, and it's why Tuan is marching somewhere near parallel to the right track when he talks about "soft power," but, the ideology at work, in the Middle East, is a religious one (and maybe I should say "are religious ones") and it/they is/are ones that has/have had deep divisions since very near the very beginning of Islam.

At a guess, all of Islam need some (more rather than less) reformation ... but my guess also ought to tell you that I sympathized with Francis Fukuyama a few years ago ... I believe hope guess that some sort of individualistic secular-humanism is the only way in which peoples can manage to coexist without murdering each other on very large scales, and I also guess that something akin to the European Enlightenment (18th century), and the Chinese one 2,000+ years earlier, is needed but I suspect that an Enlightenment must follow (a) religious reformation(s) which, I further suspect, must include some bloody civil wars ~ civil wars in which I suggest we in the US led West have no useful role to play.

 

[Kirkhill]

Both perceptive and correct, Max, and it's why Tuan is marching somewhere near parallel to the right track when he talks about "soft power," but, the ideology at work, in the Middle East, is a religious one (and maybe I should say "are religious ones") and it/they is/are ones that has/have had deep divisions since very near the very beginning of Islam.

At a guess, all of Islam need some (more rather than less) reformation ... but my guess also ought to tell you that I sympathized with Francis Fukuyama a few years ago ... I believe hope guess that some sort of individualistic secular-humanism is the only way in which peoples can manage to coexist without murdering each other on very large scales, and I also guess that something akin to the European Enlightenment (18th century), and the Chinese one 2,000+ years earlier, is needed but I suspect that an Enlightenment must follow (a) religious reformation(s) which, I further suspect, must include some bloody civil wars ~ civil wars in which I suggest we in the US led West have no useful role to play.

Matthew 24:6 - "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."

Archaeologists have just found another massacre site in Iran - 3400 years old.

And others have been found all over the Middle East dating back to 5800 years ago

These folks' problems date a long way back before Mohammed.  In fact I could argue that Mohammed was a "peace maker", making peace among his own by finding them an external enemy - just like Charlemagne and an multitude of others.

And I'm afraid I don't think a Reformation is going to provide an answer. The Reformation started with the Affair of the Placards in 1534 Luther's Theses in 1517 and lasted until Pope John XXIII.  I didn't see much sign of Christian peace in that interval and I don't see that fundamental attitudes on power and democracy have changed any in Europe.  The elites are still looking for top down mechanisms and for a man to lead them.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Matthew 24:6 - "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."

Archaeologists have just found another massacre site in Iran - 3400 years old.

And others have been found all over the Middle East dating back to 5800 years ago

These folks' problems date a long way back before Mohammed.  In fact I could argue that Mohammed was a "peace maker", making peace among his own by finding them an external enemy - just like Charlemagne and an multitude of others.

And I'm afraid I don't think a Reformation is going to provide an answer. The Reformation started with the Affair of the Placards in 1534 Luther's Theses in 1517 and lasted until Pope John XXIII.  I didn't see much sign of Christian peace in that interval and I don't see that fundamental attitudes on power and democracy have changed any in Europe.  The elites are still looking for top down mechanisms and for a man to lead them.

Quibble, quibble ... I think the reformation started more than a century earlier, with Wycliffe and the Lollards; more important: reformations don't need to bring peace, they need to pave the way for enlightenment which is what, in my opinion, North Africa, the Middle East and South West Asia need ... desperately. My guess is that sans some kind of enlightenment the Arabs and the peoples they influence most will march themselves into a destructive situation from which there is no escape.



                                                     

 

[Tuan]

Campbell, I have a couple of questions to ask you. I was just wondering if Nazism was an ideology? Because it was not crushed by another ideology, rather  by brute force. Or it was just the Nazi army/regime that was defeated? Then again can you explain how Nazism differ from Qutbism? Thanks!

 

[Edward Campbell]

My opinion, worth even less than you are paying for it, is that National Socialism (like Fascism and the Falange) was a political movement. I think Marxism and communism, in its many and various disguises are ideologies, but I think Leninist-Stalinist communism and Maoist communism were/are, like National Socialism political movements. Maybe I'm slicing the salami too thinly, perhaps my ideology is your movement and vice versa ...  :dunno:

It seems to me that socialism, generally, and capitalism too, for that matter, are economic systems of social organization; I think that secularism, liberalism and Confucianism are also social organization systems, albeit not economically based. It is, I think, when you bend the basic tenets of, say, capitalism or socialism too far away from the "mushy middle" of each and too close to, say, Marxist-Leninist 'thought' or towards e.g. the Falange in Spain  in the 1930s, that you get into real trouble. Ditto for attempts to overly politicize Confucian or Buddhist teachings.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

But how we employ power changed greatly since...  Strategic attacks on civilian (essentially terrorizing them so that pressure is put on the Governments to capitulate) doesn't fly anymore.  That and we're fightig an ideology, not nations with regimes using an ideology.

This is only true because nobody has threatened us enough to warrant such attacks.  If it became necessary, we would revert back in a heartbeat.  Some other folks, namely the Russians, have no qualms using such tactics.  It was only 16 years ago that they laid siege to Grozny

Mind you they've done an excellent job rebuilding and pacifying the place since then:

 

[opcougar]

Ah....lets paint them all with the same brush eh. You mean like the followers of Christianity all get along like a house on fire, and have accepted a re-jig? I know for sure some modern day faiths will have nothing to do with my Anglican faith

But as with anyone who needs to make major changes in their lives, nothing will change or stick unless or until they're ready to make the  change.

My stopping smoking comes to mind as an example.  Didn't happen successfully until I wanted to quit for real. 

Are the followers of Islam ready, willing or able to accept a re-jig of what my wife tells me is the verbatim dictation from Allah?  I can't see how that would fly.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Campbell, I have a couple of questions to ask you. I was just wondering if Nazism was an ideology? Because it was not crushed by another ideology, rather  by brute force. Or it was just the Nazi army/regime that was defeated? Then again can you explain how Nazism differ from Qutbism? Thanks!

Further to this, in total war, especially in "great" wars, soft power is vitally important.

Ideology or or political "movement" or whatever, we, the US led "democracies" (plus some less than democratic hangers on) had to mobilize both huge armies and public support sufficient to sustain the massive war effort.

This and this were, perhaps, not quite as vital as this or this, but all were vital for this.

There was an ideological element to our, allied effort: we needed to convince ourselves that what we were doing, sacrificing was necessary and that victory was achievable. Churchill's speeches and things like this which came into American living rooms in 1940 helped to mobilize the will to fight, just as Leni Riefenstahl had done for the Germans in 1935.

 

[Tuan]

Further to this, in total war, especially in "great" wars, soft power is vitally important.

Ideology or or political "movement" or whatever, we, the US led "democracies" (plus some less than democratic hangers on) had to mobilize both huge armies and public support sufficient to sustain the massive war effort.

This and this were, perhaps, not quite as vital as this or this, but all were vital for this.

There was an ideological element to our, allied effort: we needed to convince ourselves that what we were doing, sacrificing was necessary and that victory was achievable. Churchill's speeches and things like this which came into American living rooms in 1940 helped to mobilize the will to fight, just as Leni Riefenstahl had done for the Germans in 1935.

Thank you for your response Campbell. What I wanted to know is that if Nazism can be eliminated by hard power so is Qutbism. Then I actually figured that it was not the Nazi ideology that was defeated but the Nazi army/regime that was defeated, nevertheless, the ideology still exists in the form of “Neo-Nazism”, which borrows elements from Nazi doctrine, including ultranationalism, racism, ableism, xenophobia, homophobia, antiziganism, antisemitism, and initiating the Fourth Reich. Holocaust denial is a common feature, as is incorporation of Nazi symbols and admiration of Adolf Hitler.

Following Nazi Germany's defeat in World War II and the end of the Holocaust, overt expressions of support for Nazi ideas were prohibited in Germany and other European countries. Nonetheless, movements that self-identify as National Socialist or are described as adhering to National Socialism continue to exist on the fringes of politics in many western societies. Usually espousing a white supremacist ideology, many deliberately adopt the symbols of Nazi Germany.

Please refer this:
Ed. Blamires, Cyprian and Jackson, Paul. World Fascism: A Historical Encyclopedia, Volume 1. ABC-CLIO. pp. 459–461.B
https://books.google.ca/books?id=nvD2rZSVau4C&pg=PA460&dq=neo-nazism&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PIcXUqryD_ON0wWAk4H4DA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=neo-nazism&f=false

 

[jollyjacktar]

Ah....lets paint them all with the same brush eh. You mean like the followers of Christianity all get along like a house on fire, and have accepted a re-jig? I know for sure some modern day faiths will have nothing to do with my Anglican faith

Unlike Christianity and the Bible,  Islam and the Koran are different.  As I said, they believe the Koran is directly verbatim from Allah and set out how mankind is to get on with life. Yes, there are those among that faith who play with it just as some do with the Bible.  But, seeing as Gabriel hasn't come back to remind mankind via another Prophet they're still stuck with version 1.0. Also, unlike most Christians of today the followers of Islam have it involved in their day to day life to a greater degree as was in Europe during the middle ages for the masses in Christianity.

 

[captloadie]

"Unlike Christianity and the Bible,  Islam and the Koran are different.  As I said, they believe the Koran is directly verbatim from Allah and set out how mankind is to get on with life."

The Baptist church I attended for a few years ago (so I assume all Baptist churches must be the same) did very much believe that the Bible was the direct word of God, written by him through the various authors of the books. They also believed theirs was the true religion, and it was our duty as a congregation to go out and not only spread the word, but convert other Christian followers to the true church. Not so different than what you say Islam is all about.

 

[Good2Golf]

...except for that death of apostates thingy under Islam...

 

[jollyjacktar]

"Unlike Christianity and the Bible,  Islam and the Koran are different.  As I said, they believe the Koran is directly verbatim from Allah and set out how mankind is to get on with life."

The Baptist church I attended for a few years ago (so I assume all Baptist churches must be the same) did very much believe that the Bible was the direct word of God, written by him through the various authors of the books. They also believed theirs was the true religion, and it was our duty as a congregation to go out and not only spread the word, but convert other Christian followers to the true church. Not so different than what you say Islam is all about.

Sure, there are branches of Christianity that believe one thing or another.  Some try to use the Bible as "the word" and live by it's tenets, others say theirs is the "correct" franchise.  Hell some even believe that the earth is only 6000 years old.  Whatever... 

Not all Christianity, however, believes the Bible is the direct word of God, and that is a major difference.  Once maybe, but as ER says they had their enlightenment a long long time ago.  I just don't know how you would be able to get the straight laced Muslims to reconsider and reform to a more moderate version 2.0

 

[Edward Campbell]

Thank you for your response Campbell. What I wanted to know is that if Nazism can be eliminated by hard power so is Qutbism. Then I actually figured that it was not the Nazi ideology that was defeated but the Nazi army/regime that was defeated, nevertheless, the ideology still exists in the form of “Neo-Nazism”, which borrows elements from Nazi doctrine, including ultranationalism, racism, ableism, xenophobia, homophobia, antiziganism, antisemitism, and initiating the Fourth Reich. Holocaust denial is a common feature, as is incorporation of Nazi symbols and admiration of Adolf Hitler.

You're getting closer to the right track,

It took a whole helluva lot of hard power to defeat the Nazi German Navy, Army and Air Force. They were formidable foes: well staffed, well equipped, well organized and well led. They were well staffed, and well led and so on because they were German, not because of National Socialism.

It took a fair bit of our soft power to do two things:

    First: raise and sustain our own fighting spirit ~ see the Second Principle of War, etc; and

    Second: undermine, in the aftermath of victory, the underlying social discords that made Fascism, National Socialism and Shinto nationalism/militarism attractive to the countries concerned.

It is in the latter aspect that 

  and 

...

... were just as important as 

  and 

Edit: format & a typo

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Attention: Latest News - Air operations

As of 7 November 2015, Air Task Force-Iraq conducted 1717 sorties:
•CF-188 Hornet fighters conducted 1101 sorties;
•CC-150T Polaris aerial refueller conducted 299 sorties, delivering some 17,778,000 pounds of fuel to coalition aircraft; and
•CP-140 Aurora aircraft conducted 317 reconnaissance missions.

317 for the LRP folks in a year;  well done, with a shout-out to the maintainers who are making that possible. 

 

[The Bread Guy]

Oopsie ....

The Defence Department says a CC-130 Hercules -- flying to Erbil, Iraq, in support of Operation Impact -- was held by authorities at Baghdad International Airport for several days late last month.

Department of National Defence spokeswoman Dominique Tessier said Monday in an email that the plane was held due to an issue with customs documentation with respect to its cargo.

Tessier said the Canadian Armed Forces and Department of Foreign Affairs worked with Iraqi authorities to resolve the situation and the aircraft returned to Kuwait.

She said the aircraft was at Baghdad International Airport between Oct. 28 and 31.

Tessier said no equipment or cargo was confiscated by Iraqi authorities, but declined to disclose what the plane was carrying other than to say it originated from Canada ....

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I feel an episode of Border Security coming up.

"Did you pack that cargo pellet yourself? Do you know what is inside?"  ;D

 

[63 Delta]

Attention: Latest News - Air operations

As of 7 November 2015, Air Task Force-Iraq conducted 1717 sorties:
•CF-188 Hornet fighters conducted 1101 sorties;
•CC-150T Polaris aerial refueller conducted 299 sorties, delivering some 17,778,000 pounds of fuel to coalition aircraft; and
•CP-140 Aurora aircraft conducted 317 reconnaissance missions.

317 for the LRP folks in a year;  well done, with a shout-out to the maintainers who are making that possible. 

Can you define a sortie for me? If a flight of 2 CF-188's take off on a mission, is that 1 or 2 sorties?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Can you define a sortie for me? If a flight of 2 CF-188's take off on a mission, is that 1 or 2 sorties?

Sure.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/operations-abroad-current/op-impact.page

Definition - sortie: In air operations, a sortie refers to an operational flight by one aircraft. A sortie starts when one aircraft takes off and ends upon landing.

 

[a_majoor]

Historically, oppressive or evil regimes needed to be smashed by force and their institutions dismantled and discredited in order to remove the immediate threat, and also to allow the "new" ideas of the victors to take root. This argument was outlined in great detail by Victor Davis Hansen (especially in his book "The Soul of Battle"), using Sparta, the Confederacy and Nazi Germany as the examples.

The argument hinges on the ability to discredit the ideological underpinnings through the destruction and humiliation of the leadership (this is especially potent if the leadership is tightly tied to the ideology and use this to legitimize their own hold on power). More broadly distributed ideologies, like religions, are probably not as prone to this sort of decapitating strike: if Rome was bombed and the Pope killed, I rather doubt that Catholicism would vanish. Killing the leadership and "middle management" of radical jihadi groups can disrupt them and keep them off balance, but as has been pointed out, some sort of new and more attractive ideas need to be substituted for the radical interpretations of Islam being spread by the Jihadis.

One thing which I don't think people have paid enough attention to is why the radical interpretations of Islam are taking root, and have at least tacit support among the rank and file of the population despite the rather grotesque activites being carried out in the name of religion. If people are not feeling threatened or compelled to take action on their own against these monsters living right next door, then our own activities will not be particularly effective either.