officer training (or lack thereof)

[ender]

Why don‘t all officers have to take thier phase courses?

Recently we got two new 2Lt‘s at my unit. They were getting thier initial kit issue and being taught how to tye up thier boots and stuff like that. Yet, since they have a degree, they are automatically 2Lt‘s. So I salute them but they don‘t even know how to salute back. These people arn‘t going to have to take thier phase courses, but instead will have trade courses. How can they command a troop without at least a rudimentary understanding on how the army works? Some of our officers are fairly clueless with regards to both the perspective of the ordinary soldier, and thier own basic soldier skills.

Yes, I know, it is not for me to reason why. And I still havn‘t quite figured out what officers do. But this system doesn‘t seem to make any sense at all.

Comments?

 

[Gunner]

ender, I can appreciate your concern, however, the two 2Lt‘s that you are concerned about will indeed have to take their phase trg. Officers joining the CF with a degree are promoted to 2Lt in recognition of this. Right or wrong, it‘s been this way for many years (as long as I can remember). The point to remember is OCdts and 2Lts are training ranks for those who are undergoing their basic officer training and basic classification training. Just because they have a degree does not mean they skip any training. Don‘t be too hard on them as they are learning to be officers, just as you once were a young recruit.

It is unfortunate that you are not aware of what the officers do in your unit. I‘m mildly surprised as you are from an engineer unit and usually reserve engineer units have some extremely talented officers. If memory serves me correct, engineer officers have to have an engineering degree. Not to say a degree makes or breaks and officer but usually they come to the unit with alot of civilian work experience.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Rest assured they will take phase trg. As an aside, I am a firm believer that every officer, res or reg, should have to spend a minimum amount of time, (2-4 years) as an OR and then CFR. They would take the same basic and initial trade trg as everyone else and then go on to be an officer. With the seeming abundance of officers we have, starting with all the generals, this should‘nt be a problem. It will also stop some of the superiority complexes that seem so prevelant today. If they saw and lived like the others for awhile, maybe they would protect them more instead of covering their own asses and passing the buck. It would also teach them a certain amount of respect for what the OR‘s endure, which seems to be extremely lacking in today‘s CF. Just my vent. I hate seeing people esconded into Officer Mess protocols and pomp, being told by brother officers not to trust their NCO‘s, cause they‘ll get screwed before, as you say, before they can even tie their boots properly. Now I feel better and can go to work a little happier. Thx. Willie!
recceguy

 

[bossi]

This promises to be a lively discussion.
Now, let‘s see ... where to start, where to start ...

First off - for the sake of "argument", let‘s pretend the Army is like a hockey team - everybody has a "position" to play, sort of like forwards, defence, and goalie. Now, on a hockey team, rarely is the goalie begrudged for not scoring goals - his/her job is to stop them. The goal-scorers are supposed to be the forwards, supported by the defence. Equally, even though the defence are supposed to stop the opposing forwards, everybody is expected to back-check.

Thus, the moral of the story is ... teamwork above all.

Accordingly, if you don‘t understand how officers are supposed to "play their position", maybe it would be helpful to learn (i.e. in combat the offr might be killed, and then an NCO would have to take over ...).

Similarly, it behooves everybody to learn how others are supposed to "play" - it helps us to be a better team. Keep in mind, however, that virtually every team has strong and weak players - some forwards, some defence, and sadly ... even goalies. Winning teams, however, compensate for the foibles of individuals through superb teamwork.

Want to be part of a winning team?

Finally, here are a few observations from authorities much more qualifed than yours truly:

"Waste no time arguing what a good person should be. Be one."
- Marcus Aurelius Antoninus

"The Army taught me some great lessons -- to be prepared for catastrophe -- to endure being bored -- and to know that however fine a fellow I thought myself in my usual routine there were other situations in which I was inferior to men that I might have looked down upon had not experience taught me to look up."
Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. (1841-1935)

"Junior officers and NCOs who neglect to guide the thinking of their men are shirking a command responsibility."
February 1955 Combat Forces Journal

Officers without experience in war should be treated kindly. Their good actions should be praised. Small requests should be granted and they should not be treated in an overbearing manner, but severity is maintained about everything regarding duty.
(Frederick The Great: Instruction for His Generals, viii, 1747)

"The safety, honour and welfare of your country comes first, always and every time.
The honour, welfare and comfort of the men you command come next.
Your own ease, comfort and safety come last, always and every time."
- Field Marshal Sir Philip Chetwode, 10 December 1932

 

[McG]

Not ALL officers do Phase Trg. There is an alternate program for reserve officers (reserve DEO) , which breaks the Phase courses into two week blocks. Only theory is taught, and most or all field time is eliminated. The first two courses for DEO are (I belive) BOTC and BAOT. This asside, I belive most reserve officers enter through thte RESO program and do take Phase Trg.

 

[ender]

These officers don‘t have to take thier phase training, I got this from another officer so I‘m sure it‘s accurate.

Saying I don‘t know what officers do might be a slight exagerration. I know they do work, but I‘m not exactly sure what thier function within, say an enginner troop in combat.

I have worked with some excellent officers in the Engineers so far, I‘m not intending to knock officers. These new 2Lt‘s may turn out to be ok, but they will never have to do a ‘hard core‘ course or act as a section member, which I think is a highly important part of training.

 

[bossi]

Perhaps it would be useful to understand the difference between RESO phase training and the other courses.

Basically, the RESO phase training is intended for officers who are still in university and can afford to spend all summer on course (Phase One and Two the first summer, Phase Three the second, and sometimes Phase Four in the third, although it‘s not always possible to get Phase Four).

The other courses are intended for officers who have fulltime civilian jobs, and therefore must use their vacation to go on course (unless their employer grants them some additional time off for military training or service - something that is not automatic).

It may be suggested the philosophy behind these two training options is this: the university students are usually younger and, in addition to having more time on their hands for training, might also benefit from spending more time with troops. On the other hand, the traditional part-time officers should usually be slightly older, and theoretically might have already learned some life lessons on civvie street (i.e. the school of hard knocks). Also, from personal experience I‘ve found that reserve officer spend most (too much) time fighting "paper wars" - dealing with administrative headaches - as opposed to getting out into the field and having fun. As such, it is useful to have some officers who are better trained and experienced at shovelling paper ... in order to ensure that training can actually take place.

Certainly, I would never disagree with the plain and simple truth - the more time somebody spends doing something, the more practice they get. However, especially with engineer officers, it is possible their civvie job also provides them with invaluable experience in engineering skills.

It‘s also useful to remember experiences from previous wars and conflicts - young officers in World War II were rushed through their training, and thrust into combat fairly quickly ... because they were needed as replacements for casualties. Another example comes to mind - I once read a very interesting article on the American experience during the Korean War: initially, officer casualties were quite high - however, as Reserve and National Guard officers entered the war, their maturity and experience paid off in spades ... (hmmm).

However, I‘m not an impartial observer (especially since I spent time in the ranks, took part-time courses, spent many years on fulltime service, and have met both good and bad examples from EVERY entry program) - just as we recognise and accept the essential composition of the "combined arms team", I believe it is useful, even important to maintain a "mixed" officer corps - RESO, MITCP, DEO, ROTP - as long as we recognise the benefit of varied entry programs, inasmuch as they provide a more balanced officer team. If entry were restricted to only one path, the officer corps would become "The Borg" (i.e. just like a hockey team where everybody is a flashy goal-scorer, but nobody backchecks or goes into the corners ... or is capable of original thought ... ).

Food for thought, if I may.

Dileas Gu Brath,
M.B.

 

[McG]

In the near future we may see no reserve officers doing phase training. All reserve officers may be taking an new MITCP program. The reasoning for this is likely the same as for the shortening of QL2 and QL3 courses; the reserves are looking for a way to change a civi into a Pl or Tp Comd in one (and only one) summer. This must be the work of :evil: !

 

[the patriot]

Yes it must be the work of :evil: !!!! I suggest that we storm DND HQ in a :tank: and maintain the status quo where all officers take their phase training so that one day all the NCM‘s will be happy and look like this :warstory: !!!! With untrained officers, the CAF will end up six feet under :skull: !!
Suddenly, the Royal Canadian Kilted Yaksman anthem from Ren and Stimpey is heard in the background.......

-the patriot-

 

[joe_b]

hi guys
Im a new officer in the 2 ir rc and Iam doing bmq with the recruit  learn to do drill and shine whatever need to be shine and push the winter tobbaggan like every body  It dont really bother me but then i need to ask permission to go in the junior rank mess with my comrade
their some advantage in doing bmq with the recruit you no what their made off but then this summer I will not do sq with them i will do cap r and all the rest of the trg  so i dont really want to create big link

 

[Glorified Ape]

 The first two courses for DEO are (I belive) BOTC and BAOT.

I think it's IAP, then BOTC.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Ape,
I know nothing about course names[or initials] but if you look close at when McQ posted that............... ;D....might have been different in THAT age.

 

[elminister]

Joe_b I understand what you are saying because this summer I had to do my BMQ and SQ with a Captain and at the end we all had to salute him, I respect officers and some are really great in that they work and get along well wit the NCO's but they are some honestly who don't give a rats *** about us. For some of the NCO's that have been in for many years and know their stuff and to like bring themselves down to some arrogant officers who feel they know everything because they are officers. I hope no one takes offence I just letting you all know how I feel.

You can correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Glorified Ape]

Ape,
I know nothing about course names[or initials] but if you look close at when McQ posted that............... ;D....might have been different in THAT age.

You're right and I'm an idiot.


*Note to self - check postage dates before replying*

Edit: Where's KevinB's pic when you need it....

 

[Rushrules]

The way things are now:
Army Reg F: IAP and BOTP, then maybe CAP?, then basic trades trg
Army Res:  BOTP(R) and CAP(R), then basic trades trg- Units try and get this done in 1 year if pers are avail full time, longer for pers with full time jobs.
In the Res, you will likely do BMQ with NCMs (this is part 1 of BOTP), followed by a leadership package that includes small party tasks. The NCMs go on to do SQ after BMQ.
It seems like a good idea to have an officer come in as a NCM and work a few years in the trade, but it's an expensive way to generate officers that don't require a detailed knowledge of the trade.  Besides, this could lead to animosity from the ranks when the officer becomes a technician, rather than a leader.  However, a good WO/Sgt would keep this from happening.

 

[big_johnson1]

Just remember though that even though there are bad officers, there are good officers too.. It's just like the ranks. I've had good Sgts and horrible Sgts.

I'm a big believer in the whole teamwork theory, that everyone has a job, and that everyone's job is important. Well except for those transport guys (kidding! just a running joke between me and my 935 buddy).. I was told by my Lt (fresh from RMC) that I'd never make it through Kingston because my attitude wasn't right (something about not believing in the superiority of officers).. I took it as a compliment and went to civvy U


Chimo!