Officer positions

[ltmaverick25]

I can agree with alot of that.  But what about the junior officer who has defective NCOs that require sorting out?  Ive seen that many times, and the officers usually dont have the wherewithall to do anything about it.

 

[Pointer]

I can agree with alot of that.  But what about the junior officer who has defective NCOs that require sorting out?  Ive seen that many times, and the officers usually dont have the wherewithall to do anything about it.

I had occasion to have to deal with that twice in the last few months.  I'm not sure I'd call them "defective", just in need of improvement.  In the one case, the mbr recognized his problems, some of which stemmed from operational experiences and others simply as a function of his not being particularly leadership/command oriented.  He graciously "bowed out" but he's still a very valuable member and has an excellent attitude.

In the other case, I tried counselling on the performance deficiencies, though the issues were such that there wasn't much chance of counselling being able to substitute for on-the-job learning over time.  Unfortunately, due to operational constraints, there was no time to really address the problem over time with a mix of mentoring and experience.  In that case, I spoke with my superior on the officer side and the mbr's superior on the NCO side (both of which were already aware of said issues) and we proceeded with the necessary remedial measures and pers shuffling.

Another guy was just junk.  I don't use that term lightly and never with regards to someone whose issues are solely performance-related.  This guy's attitude, conduct, AND performance were all crap - the latter primarily due to his issues with the first two.  Its been over a year now and the appropriate administrative action is only now taking place, largely due to the MAJOR shortcomings in Ottawa with regards to timely processing of requests for release and the ridiculous amount of recourse available through the military justice system.

In all these cases, I had the full support of the CoC - there was absolute cooperation, both up and down.  The primary problem was just bad timing, circumstances, and bureaucratic tripe.

 

[George Wallace]

I can agree with alot of that.  But what about the junior officer who has defective NCOs that require sorting out?  Ive seen that many times, and the officers usually dont have the wherewithall to do anything about it.

I can see a problem with this, especially if an officer tries to be an "NCO" and a "Disciplinarian".  That is not an officer's job.  That is what Snr NCOs are for.  Micromanaging your troops, or overstepping the bounds and trust of your troops is a grave mistake for an officer to make.  In some instances it is a problem of NCOs, who may not have succeeded as Junior and Snr NCOs becoming officers. 

 

[ltmaverick25]

I can see a problem with this, especially if an officer tries to be an "NCO" and a "Disciplinarian".  That is not an officer's job.  That is what Snr NCOs are for.  Micromanaging your troops, or overstepping the bounds and trust of your troops is a grave mistake for an officer to make.  In some instances it is a problem of NCOs, who may not have succeeded as Junior and Snr NCOs becoming officers. 

I agree completely, ive always thought the same thing myself.  But what happens when situations arise where you need to take more active intervention.  Thats pretty tough for a bran new junior officer to do.  Say for example, and this is something I ran into all the time in the reserve combat arms world.  You have an NCO that is abusive to the troops, not physically, thats a pretty obvious flag, but verbally, mentally ect...  How do you stop something like that?  What sort of intervention is the best way to go?  Ive seen alot of junior officers ignore or avoid the issue altogether.  A rare few have tried and had the whole world blow up in their face.

 

[Pointer]

I find the NCOs generally like to "shoot their own dogs".  I have no issue with it, as long as it's done properly and isn't just a shit-on-the-downtrodden kind of thing.  That being said, if the problem NCO is, for example, in a section command role, that's definitely the officer's responsibility to sort out but it should be done in conjunction with the advice of a more snr NCO - like the 2IC.  He can relate better since he was a sect comd once whereas, unless he's a CFR, the only sect commanding that the officer has done was as a candidate on CAP and that's hardly a legitimate frame of reference.

I agree that there's nothing worse than an offr playing the NCO.  That being said, there are some people that use that line of reasoning to get out of doing crappy jobs when there's nothing more pressing to do - like filling sandbags, cleaning up brass, etc.

 

[ltmaverick25]

I find the NCOs generally like to "shoot their own dogs".  I have no issue with it, as long as it's done properly and isn't just a crap-on-the-downtrodden kind of thing.  That being said, if the problem NCO is, for example, in a section command role, that's definitely the officer's responsibility to sort out but it should be done in conjunction with the advice of a more snr NCO - like the 2IC.  He can relate better since he was a sect comd once whereas, unless he's a CFR, the only sect commanding that the officer has done was as a candidate on CAP and that's hardly a legitimate frame of reference.

I agree that there's nothing worse than an offr playing the NCO.  That being said, there are some people that use that line of reasoning to get out of doing crappy jobs when there's nothing more pressing to do - like filling sandbags, cleaning up brass, etc.

This is certainly a helpful discussion.  Thanks for the input.

What do you mean by some people using that line of reasoning to get out of crappy jobs? 

 

[George Wallace]

............  You have an NCO that is abusive to the troops, not physically, thats a pretty obvious flag, but verbally, mentally ect...  How do you stop something like that?  What sort of intervention is the best way to go?  Ive seen alot of junior officers ignore or avoid the issue altogether.  A rare few have tried and had the whole world blow up in their face.

I find the NCOs generally like to "shoot their own dogs".  I have no issue with it, as long as it's done properly and isn't just a shit-on-the-downtrodden kind of thing.  That being said, if the problem NCO is, for example, in a section command role, that's definitely the officer's responsibility to sort out but it should be done in conjunction with the advice of a more snr NCO - like the 2IC.  He can relate better since he was a sect comd once whereas, unless he's a CFR, the only sect commanding that the officer has done was as a candidate on CAP and that's hardly a legitimate frame of reference.

It is not the officer's place to do this.  In the case of a the Section Comd, then that is the job of the Platoon WO and/or the CSM to sort out, keeping the officer informed; not for the officer to physically do him/herself.  Remember, the RSM is the CO's "Righthand man" and the Unit's "Disciplinarian", not just a pretty face.  It is the RSM who has to bring the fear of God down on the troops (and Junior officers), not a Platoon/Troop officer.

I agree that there's nothing worse than an offr playing the NCO.  That being said, there are some people that use that line of reasoning to get out of doing crappy jobs when there's nothing more pressing to do - like filling sandbags, cleaning up brass, etc.

[EDIT: Forgot to comment on this quote.]  Now some of our finest officers haven't been above getting their hands dirty and picking up brass or filling sandbags.  I know one very fine officer who so impressed me many years ago when he put on coverals and filled sandbags for ballast at Swim Camp in Hohne.  He has continued to impress. 

 

[Pointer]

It is not the officer's place to do this.  In the case of a the Section Comd, then that is the job of the Platoon WO and/or the CSM to sort out, keeping the officer informed; not for the officer to physically do him/herself.  Remember, the RSM is the CO's "Righthand man" and the Unit's "Disciplinarian", not just a pretty face.  It is the RSM who has to bring the fear of God down on the troops (and Junior officers), not a Platoon/Troop officer.

I agree - I meant with performance.  If a commander's performance is sub-par, it's the next highest commander that should sort him out.  I wouldn't run around jacking up my section commanders for shitty boots.  I might make a crack, but if there's face-screaming to be done, my 2ICs far better at it than I.

[EDIT: Forgot to comment on this quote.]  Now some of our finest officers haven't been above getting their hands dirty and picking up brass or filling sandbags.  I know one very fine officer who so impressed me many years ago when he put on coverals and filled sandbags for ballast at Swim Camp in Hohne.  He has continued to impress. 

True, but there's also plenty that stand around or find more "pressing" matters, like staring intently down at the range clearance certificate for 15 minutes as though it poses some life-altering, mind-blowingly difficult dilemma.

 

[bdave]

Hello

I've been reading this thread and i just want to be clear on one thing:

If i decide to become NCO (reserve) while i do my university and then after i finish and acquire my degree i apply for officer...i will be refused unless i am above corporal?
So i might as well apply for officer right now instead of joining in as NCO.

Is this correct?

 

[ltmaverick25]

No that is not correct.  There are multiple ways to commission from the ranks.

I was a Cpl and commissioned as an officer.  You dont have to become a Sgt first.  The CFR is for Sgts and up, but there is another option for NCMs.

Also, in the reserves you do not have to wait for your degree to be complete before becoming an officer.  As long as you are enrolled in  university you can apply straight as an officer and the rest is history.

 

[bdave]

Do you think it would be more beneficial to stay NCO reserve until i get my degree and then become officer (regular) or just go officer from the beginning?
I would think being NCO and changing to officer would allow you to see both worlds and allow you to function more completely as a leader.

Is this assumption correct?

 

[ltmaverick25]

Your assumption is potentially correct.  Having experience as an NCM can certainly help you be a better leader when you become an officer if you apply that experience correctly.

However, you need to understand that reserve units do not get administrative things done quickly or smoothly (that has been my experience over the past 15 years).  The other thing to consider is, just because the option is available to switch from NCM does not mean that they will say yes to you.

My advice to anyone who wants to be an officer is to be go be an officer if that is what you want to do.  You may not have NCM experience behind you, but neither do most officers out there and there are still several that manage to lead effectively and do a good job.

 

[George Wallace]

Your assumption is potentially correct.  Having experience as an NCM can certainly help you be a better leader when you become an officer if you apply that experience correctly.

However, you need to understand that reserve units do not get administrative things done quickly or smoothly (that has been my experience over the past 15 years).  The other thing to consider is, just because the option is available to switch from NCM does not mean that they will say yes to you.

My advice to anyone who wants to be an officer is to be go be an officer if that is what you want to do.  You may not have NCM experience behind you, but neither do most officers out there and there are still several that manage to lead effectively and do a good job.

At the same time you have to realize that even if you apply as an officer, it does not guarantee that you will be accepted.  The "Officer Corps" is a fraction of the number of the members that make up the rest of the CF Reg and Reserve.  If there are no positions for officers, then you will not become one.

Becoming an officer is not a 'Right', it is a 'possibility' if positions exist.

 

[ltmaverick25]

That is true, but if he applies as an officer and they turn him down, or tell him there are no positions available, he can easily move in to an NCM position at that point assuming he is deemed suitable.