October 2019: Turkey into Syria to Deal With Kurds

[Blackadder1916]

  . . .  You can trust the Israelis . . .

There are probably a couple hundred former US sailors who may disagree with you.

http://www.gtr5.com/

 

[tomahawk6]

Why the hate ?

 

[CBH99]

Not hate.  But not unconditional support either.

It was Israel who sank a US warship, deliberately.  And much more recently, it was Israel who shelled UN observation posts, killing a Canadian among others.




But between Israel and Turkey, Israel absolutely is the better choice between the two - I think most people would agree with you on that.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Turkey Bombs US Special Forces: https://nationalpost.com/news/world/report-turkey-has-just-bombed-u-s-special-forces-in-syria

 

[Remius]

Turkey Bombs US Special Forces: https://nationalpost.com/news/world/report-turkey-has-just-bombed-u-s-special-forces-in-syria

If they were SEALS or Green Berets then it’s ok.  Neither unit were at the Normandy invasion to help out.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Not hate.  But not unconditional support either.

It was Israel who sank a US warship, deliberately. 

If you are talking about the USS Liberty she wasn't sunk, but shot to pieces and 34 people killed. And you are right, it was deliberate.

 

[Jarnhamar]

If you are talking about the USS Liberty she wasn't sunk, but shot to pieces and 34 people killed. And you are right, it was deliberate.

Thats messed up. Seems Israel does whatever it wants.

 

[BDTyre]

P.S. -- A reminder (with thanks to Ted Campbell for pointing this out in one of his latest pieces) ...

Yeah, but they didn't help out at NORMANDY....  :tsktsk:

 

[mariomike]

(with thanks to Ted Campbell for pointing this out in one of his latest pieces) ...

He had this to say,

Donald Trump is a disgrace.

He is an intellectually weak bully who, almost instinctively, sides with autocrats against freedom fighters.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Yeah, but they didn't help out at NORMANDY....  :tsktsk:

Neither did KSA, hmmm wonder if they are worried?

 

[Remius]

Not sure how I feel about this.  On one hand that guy might be dead.  On the other he may have escaped.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/jack-letts-syria-turkey-artillery-1.5319047

 

[The Bread Guy]

A few of the latest tidbits - highlights mine ...

• "Isis militants break out of prison in Syria after bombing by Turkey" (The Independent - UK)
• "Fighting off a “genocidal attack” by Turkey, a spokesperson for the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) said they can no longer be responsible for the ticking time bomb that is the thousands of Islamic State (ISIS) militants and their supporters held in Kurdish jails.  “We are currently subject to a genocidal attack. There is a project to make a demographic change and eradicate Kurds. Therefore, our first duty is the protection of our people, border and soil,” head of the SDF press office Mustafa Bali told Rudaw in Hasaka, northern Syria.  “All our forces are focusing on this now. Our prisons, which have about 12,000 ISIS gangs, and camps, which have more than 90,000 families of ISIS fighters and migrants, are like detonated bombs. We do not know when they will explode. However, this is no longer our responsibility,” he said ..." (Kurdish media)
  [*]"An explosion that may have been caused by Turkish artillery struck near a U.S. military outpost in northern Syria on Friday, but no U.S. personnel were reported hurt, U.S. officials said, an incident that highlights the risks to U.S. troops as Turkey wages an offensive in the region ..." (Reuters)
  [*]"Turkey’s National Defense Ministry on Friday rejected claims that the Turkish army targeted a U.S. observation post east of the Euphrates in northern Syria amid its counter-terror operation.  “It is out of the question that any fire targeted the U.S.’s observation post,” the ministry said in a written statement.  Stating that every kind of measure was being taken in order not to harm the U.S. base, it said “fire was halted as a precautionary measure when the U.S. conveyed its concerns.”  "It is out of the question to target any U.S. and coalition forces,” it stressed ..." (Turkish media)
  [*]"Need to de-escalate situation in northeast Syria before it's 'irreparable': Pentagon" (Reuters)
  [*]"Turkey Syria offensive: 100,000 flee homes as assault continues" (BBC)
  [*]"Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin on Friday announced that President Trump will sign an executive order expanding the administration's ability to impose sanctions on Turkish officials as the president faces growing criticism over his decision to pull U.S. forces out of northern Syria.  Mnuchin said that the executive order does not itself contain new sanctions, but gives Trump the authority to enact them ..." (thehill.com)
  [*]"US: “We will not abandon the Kurds;” calls on Turkey to stop attack in Syria; but is rebuffed by Erdogan" (Kurdish media)
  [*]"A video viewed 17,000 times claims to show Kurdish fighters shooting and destroying Turkish tanks in the northern Syrian city of Afrin. However, the images actually show a spectacular gun show that takes place biannually in the US state of Kentucky ..." (Agence France-Presse fact checking site)

 

[The Bread Guy]

A few update tidbits ...

• "Kurds Could Switch Priority from Guarding IS Prisoners1 to Defending People" (Kurdish media)
• "Kurdistan Region officials call on Russia to protect Kurds in northern Syria" (Kurdish media)
• " Syria must be freed from foreign military presence: Putin" (Reuters)
• " Turkey's Syria offensive an 'invasion' - Arab League secretary general" (Reuters)
• " Turkey condemns Arab League chief’s remarks" (Turkish media)
• " Information regarding the attacks by the invading Turkish army on Northern Syria on October 11th." (Syrian Democratic Forces info-machine)
• " YPG/PKK committed war crimes in Syria: Turkish official" (Turkish media)
• "Germany to curb arms sales to Turkey over Syria operation" (politico.eu)

1 - Appears to be a bit of a softening of the "they're not ours anymore" from the SDF spokesperson quoted yesterday.

 

[CBH99]

Turkey...

While the situation in Syria is no doubt complicated in that various players & their proxies are all vying for influence, and the general security situation sucks...

You are deploying state-commanded armed forces into the sovereign territory of another legally recognized state without their consent.  That is literally a textbook definition of invasion. 



The invasion may be limited in scope. 

It may have the intention of simply creating a buffer zone close to your own border to better protect your border from what you perceive to be a threat.

It may not be that your intention is the conquest and pillaging of the country your invading.

It may be that the deployment is intended to be short lived, with certain objectives to be accomplished.



BUT...you are deploying military forces across the border into another legally recognized country without their permission.  It's an invasion.  (Whether you like the term or not.)


noun
noun: invasion; plural noun: invasions

    an instancen of invading a country or region with an armed force.
    "in 1546 England had to be defended from invasion"



BTW... did Turkey seriously just threaten the EU indirectly with terrorism?  If the EU calls it an invasion, then Turkey will start allowing thousands of unchecked refugees into Europe, including possible ISIS fighters currently being held in camps?  The same camps the Kurds can't control anymore, because they are busy defending themselves against this "non-invasion" of theirs? 

The same Turkey that purchased oil from ISIS, supplied them with weapons, and didn't bother to engage them militarily despite the fact that ISIS was quickly approaching their borders?  They decided, instead, to engage the Kurds - who WERE defending that territory against ISIS.


Sorry for the rant.  Just wow...

 

[The Bread Guy]

Some of the latest ...

• "Kurdish-led authority: 785 ISIS-affiliated foreigners escaped Syria camp" (Kurdish media)
• "Families of IS fighters in Syria hope Turkish offensive offers way out" (Euronews)
• "James Mattis says Trump's troop pullout has led to 'disarray' in Syria" (The Guardian)
• "Trump sends $50 million in emergency financial assistance to Syria" (CBS News)
• "SDF demands no-fly zone for 'fair war with Turkey' " (Kurdish media)
• "Turkey's Proxy Forces Block Exit Road for Civilians in Northern Syrian Town" (Kurdish media)
• "Syrian gov't rules out communication with Kurdish forces amid Turkish assault" (CHN state media)
• "Kurdish politician among nine civilians shot dead by pro-Turkey forces in Syria" (The Guardian)
• "Turkish allies 'execute' politician and 8 civilians in northeast Syria" (UAE media)
• "Pakistan supports Turkey’s offensive against Syrian Kurds" (Kurdish media)
• "France says suspends weapons sales to Turkey" (Kurdish media)
• "480 terrorists 'neutralized' by Turkey's anti-terror op" (Turkish media)
• "Terror supporters continue anti-Turkey campaign" (Turkish media)

 

[Jarnhamar]

Sounds like ethnic cleansing.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Sounds like ethnic cleansing.

No, no, no, no -- the Turks say they're not even fighting Kurds, so how can it be ethnic cleansing? #TurkishNewsSpeak

 

[The Bread Guy]

Another reference map attached (from the Congressional Research Service's "Turkish Incursion into Syria: U.S. Policy Implications" dated 11 Oct 2019 - more here).

This opinion piece from the Institute for the Study of War, shared under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act ...

The United States made a deliberate choice to depart from Syria.  America will pay a heavy price for this unforced error.

The United States has lost its defeat mechanism against the Islamic State. The Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) were not the original counter-terrorism partner of choice. It took years for the U.S. to realize that the SDF were the only capable partners. They will not partner with us again. This betrayal has burned that bridge to ashes. It also serves as a warning for any future counterterrorism partner to contemplate – the U.S. will not have your back in the end.

The United States will face a pan-Kurdish uprising that will further fragment an already unstable region. The Kurdish component of the SDF is part of a regional network that stretches from Syria into Turkey, Iraq, and Iran. We must expect this network to mobilize. Kurds across the region have started to protest against the atrocities taking place. Few Kurdish groups will stand by and watch genocide occur. Once the Kurds mobilize as a people, the region will never be the same. The Kurds may not have a nation, but they can stand up an armed force to be reckoned with.

The United States’ decision to withdraw from Syria has emboldened jihadists worldwide. The return of the Islamic State is now a given. The sole remaining superpower has demonstrated its lack of will to ensure their continued defeat. There is no obstacle remaining in the jihadists’ path. There will be a spike in jihadist activity, from lone wolf attacks to previously unknown groups emerging from the darkness. The global war of terror has just begun.

The United States has ceded the moral high ground. Turkish planes are bombing hospitals, refugee camps, and villages using airspace the U.S. controlled just days ago. Turkish-backed forces are executing politicians and civil activists that the U.S. encouraged. Civilians are not just caught up in the Turkish offensive, they are the targets. The U.S. is not confronting the challenges posed by those who seek to destabilize the world; the U.S. has chosen to sit on the sidelines.

The U.S. decision to leave Syria has allowed a neo-Ottoman armed force to march on the Arab world. Turkish President Erdogan is cleansing Kurdish areas to resettle millions of Syrian Arab refugees. They will oppose him for bringing neo-Ottoman invaders into Arab-ruled lands. Many Arabs blame Ottoman rule for the backwardness of their countries. Few will welcome its return.

The United States has decided not to be an indispensable world leader. The U.S. had maintained a security buffer between our NATO ally and our counterterrorism partner, and we walked away from it. These actions facilitate the re-emergence of ISIS, as we claim to lead the counter-ISIS coalition. The U.S. has pursued a maximum pressure campaign against Iran, but this decision just opened the door for them in Eastern Syria. Despite what our National Security Strategy claims, with this decision, America is no longer leading on the world stage.

 

[tomahawk6]

The President is taking alot of political heat from the Senate that he doesnt need. This decision IMO is a disaster and there may not be the means to put the genie back into the bottle. The Rurks have the S400 in place and we might have ro face Turkish patrot batteries. I am not sure about sanctions how quickly they could be in place. Maybe Trump may change policy. The Kurds now have sided with Assads government. What a mess.

 

[brihard]

The President is taking alot of political heat from the Senate that he doesnt need. This decision IMO is a disaster and there may not be the means to put the genie back into the bottle. The Rurks have the S400 in place and we might have ro face Turkish patrot batteries. I am not sure about sanctions how quickly they could be in place. Maybe Trump may change policy. The Kurds now have sided with Assads government. What a mess.

Right. Sanctions against a NATO member. One which holds the Bosphorous strait and the key to the Black Sea. One which is a pretty key piece of real estate for supporting NATO operations in southeastern Europe and the Middle East.

Can this be cleaned up? Maybe. It would have been far less messy to simply not stomp on the bag of dog crap in the first place.