NYC subway passenger dies after another puts him in a headlock

[daftandbarmy]

Damn... my guess is this kind of stuff will start happening more often as people get tired of 'taking it'...

NYC subway passenger dies after another puts him in a headlock​

'I think as heroes we have to use moderation,' witness says

A 24-year-old man who strangled a “screaming” passenger to death was released without charges in New York.

Police arrested and released a 24-year-old former marine, who placed a 30-year-old man, identified as Jordan Neely, in a headlock that a witness said lasted 15 minutes. Video shows Neely pinned to the ground by a man who has an arm wrapped around his neck while two passengers help to subdue him. One of the men holds down his flailing arms during the final two minutes. The incident occurred on a Manhattan subway heading northbound on Monday.
Journalist Juan Alberto Vazquez, who filmed part of the incident, told the New York Post that Neely walked onto the train and announced “he had no food, he had no drink, that he was tired and doesn’t care if he goes to jail.

“He started screaming all these things, took off his jacket, a black jacket that he had, and threw it on the ground,” Vazquez said.
At this point, the marine went up behind Neely and took him to the ground, performing a chokehold that lasted 15 minutes, Vazquez said.

Neely, who had a history of mental health problems, can be seen trying to free himself until he suddenly loses consciousness and stops moving.

An unconscious Neely was taken to a nearby hospital, where he was pronounced dead.

Vazquez said the man hadn’t attacked anyone physically when he was restrained, adding he felt conflicted about how the situation unfolded.

“I think that in one sense it’s fine that citizens want to jump in and help. But I think as heroes we have to use moderation,” he said.

The rider was questioned but released as the investigation proceeds, police said. Police said the man would not be charged, according to the Daily Mail.

NYC subway passenger dies after another puts him in a headlock

 

[brihard]

So the guy got on a subway, made a scene and screamed but wasn’t physical with anyone, then a passenger initiated physical force, got him in a chokehold and now he’s dead?

Dude’s likely gonna face manslaughter.

 

[Haggis]

So the guy got on a subway, made a scene and screamed but wasn’t physical with anyone, then a passenger initiated physical force, got him in a chokehold and now he’s dead?

Dude’s likely gonna face manslaughter.

A more recent news report says the Medical Examiner has classified this a homicide by chokehold. No charges have been laid so far.

 

[mariomike]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1653960830520532993

 

[Furniture]

After the recent spike in violent crime on NY subways, I'm not sure the guy would get anything too serious if charged. The last thing New Yorkers want is people to be afraid to intervene when they see something happening.

 

[mariomike]

For readers old enough to remember Bernard Goetz - the NYC " Four on the floor Subway Vigilante" - served 8 months, and a $5,000 fine.

That was a Manhattan jury.

It was the civil litigation in the Bronx that hurt.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1996/04/24/goetz-loses-43-million-jury-verdict/f670e122-8a81-41aa-9b08-e4c53a02d6da/

A Bronx jury today ordered Bernhard Goetz, the "subway vigilante," to pay $43 million in damages to one of the four black youths he shot on a Manhattan subway car 12 years ago.

So the guy got on a subway, made a scene and screamed but wasn’t physical with anyone, then a passenger initiated physical force, got him in a chokehold and now he’s dead?

Been some controversy in the past,

( LAPD ) Chief Gates thought he was showing "great sensitivity" when he asked his aides to confirm his "hunch" that blacks might not recover as quickly as whites from carotid chokeholds. "We may be finding that in some blacks when it (the choke hold) is applied, the veins and arteries do not open as fast as they do in normal people."

Did a pretty fair Subway Michael Jackson

https://twitter.com/search?q=jordan%20neely&src=recent_search_click&f=video

https://twitter.com/x/status/1653843395373047808

 

[brihard]

After the recent spike in violent crime on NY subways, I'm not sure the guy would get anything too serious if charged. The last thing New Yorkers want is people to be afraid to intervene when they see something happening.

I can’t see him not being charged. I struggle to imagine him eating something less than manslaughter- at first glance it appears he committed an assault, and the victim died. Sentencing is a judge matter, not a jury matter.

Someone freaking out and being loud - but not violent - is not something that inherently justifies a physical intervention by a bystander, never mind one that has a realistic risk of causing bodily harm. The suspect’s counsel would need to make a compelling case that the use of force is lawful, proportionate, and necessary, and I'm not having an easy time seeing that.

 

[Furniture]

I can’t see him not being charged. I struggle to imagine him eating something less than manslaughter- at first glance it appears he committed an assault, and the victim died. Sentencing is a judge matter, not a jury matter.

Someone freaking out and being loud - but not violent - is not something that inherently justifies a physical intervention by a bystander, never mind one that has a realistic risk of causing bodily harm. The suspect’s counsel would need to make a compelling case that the use of force is lawful, proportionate, and necessary, and I'm not having an easy time seeing that.

The NYPD already released him without charges, so at the time of the altercation the authorities didn't feel there was reason to charge him.

If it had occurred Canada I'd agree with your assessment, but America seems less "charge them all, let the courts sort it out" than Canada.

 

[GK .Dundas]

So ... it's open season on the mentally ill in NY city?. For much the same reason door to door salesmen cannot get Life insurance in Florida.
Meet the law of unintended consequences.
I suspect this will happen again

 

[KevinB]

The NYPD already released him without charges, so at the time of the altercation the authorities didn't feel there was reason to charge him.

If it had occurred Canada I'd agree with your assessment, but America seems less "charge them all, let the courts sort it out" than Canada.

The NYPD doesn't make the determination at the end of the day, they took a statement and released him, they can arrest, but are not the end determining factor as to charges. The DA will make that assessment, based on the facts as they have them (and admittedly pressures left or right placed by the community, as they are elected after all).

Now some of the videos show another Male (Black, if that matters) helping the chokeholder restrain the deceased. I do wonder however why two people seemed to think he needed to be restrained, and why in such a specific manner that has already been subject to numerous deaths in the past.

EDP's are an issue and the system is awful dealing with Mental Health issues, but I have a hard time understanding from the limited facts as I have seen anything to justify why anyone felt there was a need to act as a civilian. Unless there is a significant amount of missing information, the only way I see this turning out is a Criminal Conviction.

New York has a variety of Assault/Homicide laws, and I am not a lawyer, nor a NY LEO - but there are a number of statutes which can be used.

S 125.00 Homicide defined.
Homicide means conduct which causes the death of a person or an unborn
child with which a female has been pregnant for more than twenty-four
weeks under circumstances constituting murder, manslaughter in the first
degree, manslaughter in the second degree, criminally negligent
homicide, abortion in the first degree or self-abortion in the first degree.



S 125.10 Criminally negligent homicide.
A person is guilty of criminally negligent homicide when, with
criminal negligence, he causes the death of another person.
Criminally negligent homicide is a class E felony.

S 125.15 Manslaughter in the second degree.
A person is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree when:
1. He recklessly causes the death of another person; or

Manslaughter in the second degree is a class C felony.

 

[mariomike]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1654159478881935360

 

[brihard]

The NYPD already released him without charges, so at the time of the altercation the authorities didn't feel there was reason to charge him.

If it had occurred Canada I'd agree with your assessment, but America seems less "charge them all, let the courts sort it out" than Canada.

A release in this case at that time doesn’t mean police don’t believe there’s ‘reason’ to charge them.it means they aren’t ready to commit yet, and there’s not a compelling reason to hold him in custody to protect the investigation.

This is a case where there is at least a bit of uncertainty as to the circumstances. The suspect’s identity is known and evidence is preserved. The police still need to take and analyze witness statements, they need to obtain video (if any), and most importantly, the medico-legal death investigation takes a bit of time. A pathological cause of death (as opposed to manner of death) needs to be determined. And then all of this information needs to be combined and the DA needs to make a decision. This takes time.

I’m not a better man, but if I were I’d say a felony indictment will issue in this case, and I suspect Kev will have been on the money as to one or both of the charges he just quoted.

There’s a lot of white noise around this one. The deceased’s mental health history. His criminal history. Those factors won’t be relevant to determining charges. This will hinge on what the suspect knew, what he reasonably perceived, how he articulates what he chose to do, and how all of those things fit the law in New York State.

 

[Furniture]

The NYPD doesn't make the determination at the end of the day, they took a statement and released him, they can arrest, but are not the end determining factor as to charges. The DA will make that assessment, based on the facts as they have them (and admittedly pressures left or right placed by the community, as they are elected after all).

Now some of the videos show another Male (Black, if that matters) helping the chokeholder restrain the deceased. I do wonder however why two people seemed to think he needed to be restrained, and why in such a specific manner that has already been subject to numerous deaths in the past.

EDP's are an issue and the system is awful dealing with Mental Health issues, but I have a hard time understanding from the limited facts as I have seen anything to justify why anyone felt there was a need to act as a civilian. Unless there is a significant amount of missing information, the only way I see this turning out is a Criminal Conviction.

New York has a variety of Assault/Homicide laws, and I am not a lawyer, nor a NY LEO - but there are a number of statutes which can be used.

S 125.00 Homicide defined.
Homicide means conduct which causes the death of a person or an unborn
child with which a female has been pregnant for more than twenty-four
weeks under circumstances constituting murder, manslaughter in the first
degree, manslaughter in the second degree, criminally negligent
homicide, abortion in the first degree or self-abortion in the first degree.



S 125.10 Criminally negligent homicide.
A person is guilty of criminally negligent homicide when, with
criminal negligence, he causes the death of another person.
Criminally negligent homicide is a class E felony.

S 125.15 Manslaughter in the second degree.
A person is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree when:
1. He recklessly causes the death of another person; or

Manslaughter in the second degree is a class C felony.

I wasn't sure if it was DA, or some other term for the equivalent of Crown Prosecutor, I watched Law and Order, but I don't trust everything I see in TV shows.

My point was more that if it was as clear cut a case as people are implying, he would have been detained then charged at the time of the incident. The DA may review the details and charge him later, but as I said in my first reply, if that happens I doubt it will amount to much.

My understanding is that there has been a lot of violent crime and a few deaths in the NY subway recently, people are on edge, so the DA may be hesitant to set the example that intervening when you suspect things will get violent will get you in a lot of trouble.

 

[KevinB]

I wasn't sure if it was DA, or some other term for the equivalent of Crown Prosecutor, I watched Law and Order, but I don't trust everything I see in TV shows.

My point was more that if it was as clear cut a case as people are implying, he would have been detained then charged at the time of the incident. The DA may review the details and charge him later, but as I said in my first reply, if that happens I doubt it will amount to much.

My understanding is that there has been a lot of violent crime and a few deaths in the NY subway recently, people are on edge, so the DA may be hesitant to set the example that intervening when you suspect things will get violent will get you in a lot of trouble.

I have a few buddies in NYP, they just groaned...

The DA is IMHO going to charge them, you just can't let someone choke someone else out on the subway, let alone to the point of death.
Now what the sentence will be, to me that will depend upon what facts come up - and what the DA/City wants set as a tone.

Personally, the best recommendation IMHO for people, this goes exponentially for dealing with EDP:
1) be a good witness
2) attempt to deescalate the situation verbally if it is safe to do so, if not call 911
3) avoid any sort of use of force unless it is in direct defense of one's self or others, Call 911.

I was not there, and I don't have all the facts, but nowhere do I see any reason at this point based on what I know to justify any sort of physical intervention, ESPECIALLY with a suspected EDP.

 

[medicineman]

Having just gone through a homicide trial as a juror of what was being touted as a defence of person case that still resulted in a verdict of 2nd degree murder, from what I've seen/heard thus far, they're going to have make a compelling case for keeping a choke hold on someone beyond the point they went unconscious, because even someone that's completely brain dead in the sarcastic sense knows/should reasonably know that the person on the other side of the choke will be brain dead in the literal sense if you don't release it.

$0.02

 

[daftandbarmy]

Having just gone through a homicide trial as a juror of what was being touted as a defence of person case that still resulted in a verdict of 2nd degree murder, from what I've seen/heard thus far, they're going to have make a compelling case for keeping a choke hold on someone beyond the point they went unconscious, because even someone that's completely brain dead in the sarcastic sense knows/should reasonably know that the person on the other side of the choke will be brain dead in the literal sense if you don't release it.

$0.02

If only there were a similar case for the purpose of precedent? Oh, wait....

 

[Fishbone Jones]

As always, we can speculate this to death. One side for, one side against, everyone guessing. You can't believe any video unless we see him walking onto the subway, thru til the end. You can't believe witnesses until you come to a consensus with all of them. Could be pro or con, but until all the statements are in, we just don't know. Lastly, anything the press writes is automatically suspect. It wouldn't be the first time that the press was guilty of whipping up a frenzy of faux outrage, that will just result in looted stores and riots based on what they wrote. Of course, BLM and ANTIFA are always ready to start shit. We can't compare our system to theirs's in what ends up being plain old navel gazing. You're trying to decide the ending of the movie from nothing more than the title and actors.

I have a few buddies in NYP, they just groaned...

The DA is IMHO going to charge them, you just can't let someone choke someone else out on the subway, let alone to the point of death.
Now what the sentence will be, to me that will depend upon what facts come up - and what the DA/City wants set as a tone.

Personally, the best recommendation IMHO for people, this goes exponentially for dealing with EDP:
1) be a good witness
2) attempt to deescalate the situation verbally if it is safe to do so, if not call 911
3) avoid any sort of use of force unless it is in direct defense of one's self or others, Call 911.

I was not there, and I don't have all the facts, but nowhere do I see any reason at this point based on what I know to justify any sort of physical intervention, ESPECIALLY with a suspected EDP.

Why not Kev. Soros backed DA's all across the country won't prosecute violent criminal behavior. Reducing felonies to misdemeanors. Won't put killers in jail. Hell, New York is trying to close Ricker's, not fill it. He has a few things against him though. The suspected perp is ex military, one, and perhaps just a good guy trying to do the right thing, two, and he's white, three. The DA has his hat trick.

 

[mariomike]

Good luck with that, City of New York.

I've been reading about the FDNY-EMS B-HEARD program for a couple of years. Sounds like it's going down the tubes. The data seems skewed, to me. Looks like they cherry pick calls to make the stats look good.

It's an intersting, but difficult topic. I don't see the easy answers.

Didn't have any fast and easy solutions when I was stationed 800 metres from 999 as a probie

FDNY EMS: Behavioral Health Emergency Assistance Response Division aka B-HEARD Pilot Program.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1400999422323048448

https://twitter.com/x/status/1634207857347313664

B-HEARD teams, comprised of two EMTs and a social worker from NYC Health + Hospitals, respond to a range of mental health emergencies that might involve people experiencing suicidal ideation, serious mental illnesses, substance use, and behavioral and physical health problems.

 

[Quirky]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1653960830520532993

Where was the Dad in all this? It's his fault his son died. Take care of your family members if you care so much....

 

[brihard]

As always, we can speculate this to death. One side for, one side against, everyone guessing. You can't believe any video unless we see him walking onto the subway, thru til the end. You can't believe witnesses until you come to a consensus with all of them. Could be pro or con, but until all the statements are in, we just don't know. Lastly, anything the press writes is automatically suspect. It wouldn't be the first time that the press was guilty of whipping up a frenzy of faux outrage, that will just result in looted stores and riots based on what they wrote. Of course, BLM and ANTIFA are always ready to start shit. We can't compare our system to theirs's in what ends up being plain old navel gazing. You're trying to decide the ending of the movie from nothing more than the title and actors.

So you say all this…

Why not Kev. Soros backed DA's all across the country won't prosecute violent criminal behavior. Reducing felonies to misdemeanors. Won't put killers in jail. Hell, New York is trying to close Ricker's, not fill it. He has a few things against him though. The suspected perp is ex military, one, and perhaps just a good guy trying to do the right thing, two, and he's white, three. The DA has his hat trick.

And then you go and say this, speculating heavily yourself, and somehow managing to drag Soros into this? Nicely done.

Anyway, I’m sure we can all comfortably carry on with the conversation as we see fit. Some of us will potentially have a bit of insight to offer, and if any of us are too full of shit, I’m sure someone else will call us on it.